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How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

nytimes.com

421–428 of 428 posts

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we’re both willing to pay that in a free market economy, then we both leave the deal happy. Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. And that can change over time. Sentiment matters more than fundamental value in the short term. Long term, on a timescale of a decade or more, it’s different.

Both parties would need the $1B prior to the transaction for it to even potentially be meaningful, and still they just traded a cat for a dog and only paid each other on paper. That ultimately wouldn't be a big deal if the paper valuation from the trade didn't matter. As it stands, though, both parties could log it as both revenue and expenses, and being public companies their valuation, and debt they can borrow agai…

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Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#422
post #406
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They know this madness can't go on forever. If they thought that, would they invest massively in the companies that own all these GPUs? They would not. They would invest in anything ELSE they could think of.

But doing that would spook investors and possibly pop the bubble, so they look for ways to mitigate risk and fuel the bubble at the same time.

That might be the case if nvidia commonly invested in its customers - if they suddenly stopped doing that - but I don't think that was the case. On the contrary, these investments surprised because they were NOT the usual.

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#423
post #188
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s about 5M software devs in the US so even at $1000/year/person spend, that’s only $5B of revenue to go around. Theres plenty of other uses cases but focusing on pure tech usage, it’s hard to see how the net present value of that equates to multiple trillions of dollars across the ecosystem.

It's the first new way of interacting with computers since the iPhone. It's going to be massively valuable and OpenAI is essentially guaranteed to be one of the players.

In 2006, I foresaw that the smartphone was going to exist and be significant. But at the time I carried a Sharp Zaurus which just identified me as a gigantic nerd, and the clearest company to invest in was... HP/Compaq for the iPAQ, in terms of the most forward-looking device.

Then Apple came out with the iPhone but it was not clear they were going to be the market leader. They were certainly not the first mover.

With OpenAI, I see even less of a moat. Someone else comes along, makes a better foundational model, and they've got a gigantic advantage. What does OpenAI have?

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The increase in value of the companies outweighs the transactional costs and then you borrow against the value of the company and make new circular deals. It works really well for a very long time and then at some point it doesn’t. The trick of the game is to get big corps involved and key decision makers so that the government bails out everyone in the end.

> The trick of the game is to get big corps involved and key decision makers so that the government bails out everyone in the end. This is bad. We should not shrug our shoulders and go "Oh ho, this is how the game is played" as though we can substitute cynicism for wisdom. We should say "this is bad, this is a moral hazard, and we should imprison and impoverish those who keep trying it". Or we'll get more.

You cannot imprison the guilty parties, they write the laws, and under the law you taking any action is criminal and will likely be classified as terrorism or political violence. They can however arrest you for holding a sign at a protest of merely for existing. These days someone just need to yell “I think it’s an immigrant” and true or not, your rights to due process disappear. All the while the scammers get pardoned by the president because they were too profitable in their scams to fail.

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw, this is a facile argument. You make no attenpt to demonstrate that after major reorganization (breakup / nationalization) that the firm will continue to have the desirable attributes (innovation, efficincy, ability to build) that made them too important to fail.

Why should I have to pay for their failure but not be rewarded when they profit. Essentially as a taxpayer I'm being forced to take all the downside risk without any gain. Nobody in the universe would make that trade.

You didn't respond to anything I said. If you want to shout into the void, notepad.exe is right there.

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't read your hyperbolically titled paywalled medium post, so idk if it has data I'm not aware of or is just rehashing the same stats about OpenAI & co currently losing money (mostly due to training and free users) but here's a non paywalled blog post that I personally found convincing: https://www.snellman.net/blog/archive/2025-06-02-llms-are-ch...

The above article is not convincing at all. Nothing on infra costs, hardware throughput + capacity (accounting for hidden tokens) & depreciation, just a blind faith that pricing by providers "covers all costs and more". Naive estimate of 1000 tokens per search using some simplistic queries, exactly the kind of usage you don't need or want an LLM for. LLMs excel in complex queries with complex and long output. Doesn't…

> Nothing on infra costs, hardware throughput + capacity (accounting for hidden tokens) & depreciation

That's because it's coming at things from the other end: since we can't be sure exactly what companies are doing, we're just going to look at the actual market incentives and pricing available and try to work backwards from there. And to be fair, it also cites, for instance, deepseek's paper where they talk about what their power foot margins are on inference.

> just a blind faith that pricing by providers "covers all costs and more".

It's not blind faith. I think they make a really good argument for why the pricing by providers almost certainly does cover all the costs and more. Again, including citing white papers by some of those providers.

> Naive estimate of 1000 tokens per search using some simplistic queries, exactly the kind of usage you don't need or want an LLM for.

Those token estimates were for comparing to search pricing to establish whether — relative to other things on the market — LLMs were expensive, so obviously they wanted to choose something where the domain is similar to search. That wasn't for determining whether inference was profitable or not in itself, and has absolutely no bearing on that.

> Doesn't account at all for chain-of-thought (hidden tokens) that count as output tokens by the providers but are not present in the output (surprise).

Most open-source providers provide thinking tokens in the output. Just separated by some tokens so that UI and agent software can separate it out if they want to. I believe the number of thinking tokens that Claude and GPT-5 use can be known as well: https://www.augmentcode.com/blog/developers-are-choosing-old...; typically, chain of thought tokens are also factored into API pricing in terms of what tokens you're charged for. So I have no idea what this point is supposed to mean.

> Completely skips the fact the vast majority of paid LLM users use fixed subscription pricing precisely because the API pay-per-use version would be multiples more expensive and therefore not economical.

That doesn't mean that selling inference by subscription isn't profitable either! This is a common misunderstanding of how subscriptions work. With these AI inference subscriptions, your usage is capped to ensure that the company doesn't lose too much money on you. And then the goal is with the subscriptions that most people who have a subscription will end up on average using less inference than they paid for in order to pay for those who use more so that it will equal out. And that's assuming that the upper limit on the subscription usage is actually more costly than the subscription being paid itself, and that's a pretty big assumption.

If you want something that factors in subscriptions and also does the sort of first principles analysis you want, this is a good article:

https://martinalderson.com/posts/are-openai-and-anthropic-re...

And in my opinion it seems pretty clear that basically everyone who does any kind of analysis whether black box or first principles on this comes to the conclusion that you can very easily make money on inference. The only people coming to any other conclusion are those that just look at the finances of U.S. AI companies and draw conclusions on that without doing any kind of more detailed breakdown — exactly like the article you linked me, which now I have finally been able to read, thanks to someone posting the archive link, which isn't actually making any kind of case about the subscription or unit economics of token inference whatsoever, but is instead just basing its case on the massive overinvestment of specifically open AI into gigantic hyperscale data centers, which is unrelated to the specific economics of AI itself.

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#427
post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it back, what the actual f*ck.

I'm no Altman stan, but 1) allegedly and 2) denied by the entire family as the words of an emotionally-unstable person. Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.

As the family black sheep who's statements are often regarded as the words of an emotionally unstable person, who's familiar with quite a few instances of such people being correct and ignored because they're inopportune (and completely preventable) trauma (if only someone had cared...) threatens the collective family bag/ego, I'm inclined to believe her.

Re: How OpenAI uses complex and circular deals to fuel its multibillion-dollar rise

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? That's a 25% expense increase. You just ate the margins on my product/service, and then some.

The equivalent of an additional $50 uber ride to the airport once a month can tank your business?

Per seat. And it's not $50 more thane baseline, it's $250. The $200 may have been justifiable where the $250 is not.
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