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Wikipedia says traffic is falling due to AI search summaries and social video

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Re: Wikipedia says traffic is falling due to AI search summaries and social video

#421
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

35 years ago South Africa had the apartheid, and now they outrank the US on a The Economist's Democracy Index [1]. So yeah, things move fast. Nitpick: The US Voting Rights Act became law in 1965 [2], which is more like 60 years ago. Not sure if that's what you were getting at with "basically an apartheid" but it was the closest concrete landmark near your 50 year timeline. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Econo…

Your link shows that South Africa ranks below the US. It is ranked 43rd in the world, vs the USA which is at 28 (in 2024 the latest year).

good point: I'd fix the post but it's too old. Well hopefully it gets downvoted into oblivion soon.

Re: Wikipedia says traffic is falling due to AI search summaries and social video

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My attempt at a point is that the controversial topics are a tiny percentage of the human knowledge stored on Wikipedia. If there were no controversies, then I would actually start to get worried. That would indicate that there was pure control of information on Wikipedia, like a theoretical CCPedia. [0] Wikipedia is so open, that they even have their own "controversial" section! Is that not the coolest thing ever? T…

> The accomplishment of Wikipedia is not just beating the Library of Alexandria by many orders of magnitude, but doing so while keeping moderation logs in the open as well. There is at least one exception to that rule. Users who attract the ArbCom's attention may get a general block. If they ask what they're blocked for, the ArbCom rep will tell them to read their email. These moderation decisions are not public, not…

There is also what's called "Oversight", which performs actions that are invisible to the public and administrators alike (though not invisible to some very privileged people)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight

There are also "office actions", where essentially the Wikimedia Foundation and/or its legal counsel have been required to do something. In most cases, the office actions are visible and logged, unless they've been required to use Oversight as well. But the main thing is that the office actions will generally not be explained to anyone, as it usually stems from some legal threat to Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Office_actions

Re: Wikipedia says traffic is falling due to AI search summaries and social video

#423
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check the pro-Israel ones too

Is there any? I thought Paliz/Woke actors were in complete control over wikipedia. That's why the talk about the alternatives.

I'm not surprised you thought that.

Re: Wikipedia says traffic is falling due to AI search summaries and social video

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure they do. Is that their primary source? Do they use nothing else? Is any of that information put to economic use in their lives or is it just curiosity?

They buy a ton of stuff from Tik-Tok and Instagram ads - yes.

The line of questioning was about news and knowledge, not ads. Ads in anything will affect people's purchases, so that's not evidence for what that question was actually going for.

Re: Wikipedia says traffic is falling due to AI search summaries and social video

#425
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The comment about Wikipedia supposedly putting companies out of business is so goofy I'm not even gonna comment on it. I've learned that when people don't have any merits to argue, they turn to ridicule. Right back at you buddy. > The difference is humans have a concept of truth, humans have intent. A person, taking an aggregation of their research, expertise, and experience to produce an article is (presumably) tr…

To think that I'm saying all humans intend to produce truth you'd have to intentionally misread my comment. Wikipedia obviously has to deal with bad actors and vandalism, and they have processes in place for that. My point is that the intent matters. Calculators aren't a useful analogy for LLMs. They produce a deterministic output based on a (relatively) narrow range of inputs. The calculations to produce those outpu…

> Wikipedia obviously has to deal with bad actors and vandalism

People produce false information for many reasons besides malice, and even when they intend to be honest.

Look how much bad information was out there before the advent of scientific method.

Re: Wikipedia says traffic is falling due to AI search summaries and social video

#426
post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How? it's just postmodernism itself. / There is no truth because everything is relative. There is no singular, objective truth, facts are intrinsically bound to their context, hence post-truth. That's not postmodernism but a caricature of it by its critics. Postmodernism cares deeply about truth. It is highly skeptical of power, bias, perception, etc. and provides tools to mitigate these risks to truth. Post-truth…

> Postmodernism cares deeply about truth. It is highly skeptical of power, bias, perception, etc. and provides tools to mitigate these risks to truth. I think someone told you this and you believed it, but the track record of postmodernists in academia tells a different story. I once saw a history lecture from a dean of the history department who had written of a book on WWII in the Philippines. This is one of the mo…

> I think someone told you this and you believed it

Obviously you don't care about the truth but just fabricate bullshit about other people that's convenient to you. I know the topic well; you clearly don't.

Your father is one source; he no doubt has his experience and memory which are important to him. If you look at the sources of a scholarly history book, you'll see thousands of people - that's how history is done, by researching primary sources like your father. Of course not everyone will agree; people will have widely varying perspectives (which is something that postmodernism helps you understand and dealt with).

These cheap shots at me, scholarship, and postmodernism - which has its flaws, but not this stuff - are an insult to everyone's intelligence, including yours.

Re: Wikipedia says traffic is falling due to AI search summaries and social video

#428
post #228
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land has been a solid investment for over a thousand years. Going forward index investing normally does ok.

So, now you want the likes of the Wikipedia foundation to become a rent seeking landlord??

Dunno - it's worked ok for Oxford and Cambridge for many centuries, and the Church. I'd rather have land owned by vaguely public benefit bodies than some private equity fund.

Re: Wikipedia says traffic is falling due to AI search summaries and social video

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true though, it's literally how your brain works. It's full of biases.

What about math and physics?

1) The Monty Hall Problem (to be precise it hinges on ambiguity and the distinction between prior and posterior probabilities, but that is something most people aren't aware of and will get wrong the first time they see it, even people with knowledge of say Bayes' Theorem)

2) For several others, see Alon Amit's superb Quora answer to "What are the most interesting or popular probability puzzles in which the intuition is contrary to the solution?" ([2], login-walled). Mentions the very counterintuitive Penney's Game [0].

3) Berkson's Paradox, aka "People in hospital/getting treatment tend to have worse health indicators".

4) Asymmetric dice behavior is counterintuitive, when you first see it.

5) Benford's Law, on quantities occurring in nature (e.g. river lengths), as opposed to uniform distribution.

6) There are lots of counterintuitive things about Platonic solids.

7) Bayes' Theorem itself, superbly useful but possibly one of the things in probability most abused on a daily basis by bad journalism and bad statistics.

8) The Multiple Testing Problem/p-hacking/aka the xkcd "Green jelly beans cause acne" and as a corollary: 8a) Most published (academic) findings aren't replicable, aka "Why Most Published Research Findings Are False", Joannidis (2005)

[9] Almost-integers

---

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem

[2]: https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-most-interesting-or-popul...

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkson%27s_paradox

[5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law

[8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_comparisons_problem

[9]: https://mathworld.wolfram.com/AlmostInteger.html

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penney%27s_game

More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Probability_theory_pa...

Re: Wikipedia says traffic is falling due to AI search summaries and social video

#430
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bias cant be avoided, only made explicit This is so untrue and this is a harmful belief. And I'm pretty much as liberal as they come.

I get the sentiment of what you're saying, but I don’t think that’s totally fair to the parent. Biases aren’t automatically "bad" or "failings". they’re akin to heuristics, and it’s practically impossible to eliminate them entirely. For example, we’re all here talking about how we should treat Wikipedia with skepticism. That's a sort of "neutral" bias that doesn't conjure a strong emotion, and is perhaps more accepta…

> In fact, the claim that “bias can be avoided and should be absolutely”, that is implicit in your resposne reflects a bias of its own: a bias toward moral or intellectual purity, as if the parent recognizing bias is equivalent to endorsing it.

Nonsense. Your definition of the word "bias" includes any assertion whatsoever. Bias is distortion from reality and truth. Saying that we can avoid distortion is not itself a distortion. I never claimed that all bias should be avoided, but the post I responded to said that bias can't be avoided.

Also,

> a bias toward moral or intellectual purity, as if the parent recognizing bias is equivalent to endorsing it.

There is no conceptual connection here between "purity" and the equivalence of recognizing bias with endorsing it, nor is saying "bias can be avoided" related to, or a kind of, "purity" in any useful sense. Stop using abstract words for effect and speak simply.

> I get that this is a pedantic point to make but to come at the parent with such vigour for being realistic, again seems a bit unfair

If the parent were being realistic, they'd say that we can't even recognize bias, which is actually more agreeable to me. But instead the parent admits that we can recognize bias. Since we've gotten that far, then I can say that failing to avoid it, when we should avoid it, is merely a lack of will and integrity rather than some inescapable fate.

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