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Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

theguardian.com

421–430 of 586 posts

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#421
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Train tracks are the train tracks of the future. Trains are far more efficient than cars, especially at scale.

Assumes everyone is in medium to high density urban areas. I like the idea, rural life excepted, but hard to imagine sprawl will ever be replaced.

It doesn’t. Trains cover the same distances as airplanes. Take a train across Washington, or anywhere, most of the stops are small towns.

Light rail, busses, and robotaxis cover sprawl.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#422
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naively as an outsider, this situation seems like everything worked as intended? On a nominally 2h45m flight, they spent an extra 2 hours in the air, presumably doing doing fuel intensive altitude changing maneuvers, and were eventually able to land safely with their reserves almost exhausted. I’m a little confused by what there is to investigate at all. How much fuel should they have landed with?

As others have said, final fuel reserves are typically at least half an hour, and you shouldn't really be cutting into them. What if their first approach into MAN had led to another go around? With a major storm heading north-easterly across the UK, the planning should have reasonably foreseen that an airport 56 miles east may also be unavailable, and should've further diverted prior to that point. They likely used t…

> As others have said, final fuel reserves are typically at least half an hour, and you shouldn't really be cutting into them.

This is one of the multiple layers of defense that airlines employ. In theory, no one single failure should cause a major incident because of redundancies and planning. Airlines rely on the "Swiss-cheese" model of safety. Each layer has its own risks and "holes" but by layering enough layers together there should be no clear path between all of the layers. In theory this prevents major incidents and given the commercial airline's safety records I'd say it works pretty fucking well. Landing with minutes of fuel left should be exceptional. But it also shouldn't be fatal or a major risk due to the other layers of the system. ATC will move heaven and earth to land a plane low on fuel or with engine trouble safely. And everyone else in the system having 30+ minutes of extra fuel gives the space for this sort of emergency sorting.

I think this also reflects on the "efficiency" that MBA types bring to companies that they ruin. If an MBA sees a dozen landings with an extra hour of fuel, their mind starts churning at saving money. Surely an hour of extra fuel is too much and just wasted. Wasted because every extra gallon of fuel you take off with is extra weight you have to carry throughout the flight. Surely things would be more efficient if we could make sure planes only carry enough fuel to make their trip with very minimal overhead. And when everything goes perfectly according to plan, these decisions work out fine. Money is saved. Bonuses are paid. But the inevitable always happens. That's why it's called inevitable. Lives are lost. Wrists are slapped. Some people at the bottom lose their jobs. The world moves on.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm curious why you did that? It's not a very complicated sequence. The whole point of engaging in a discussion here is to think about the issues raised and offer a point of view while incorporating other perspectives into yours. You've spent your money to bypass the whole intent of this site; akin to you being hungry then sending someone else to a restaurant for you so you can later read their review of the food. ED…

Why? I saw no upside to reading a layman's media source and teasing out the sequence, which is all I wanted to know. I read NTSB reports for pleasure and my favorite YT creator is Blancolirio. There's an infintesimal chance that the story had any juicy details I cared about. Also, it was work hours and I really didn't have any more time to devote to topic. I was in a rush to get my take out there, since I am a legitimate SME.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#424
post #40

That is very exceptional. I've written fuel estimation software for airliners (cargo, fortunately), and the number of rules regarding go-arounds, alternates and holding time resulted in there usually being quite a bit of fuel in the tanks on landing, by design. I've never heard of '6 minutes left' in practice where it wasn't a massive issue and the investigation into how this could have happened will make for interes…

Naively as an outsider, this situation seems like everything worked as intended? On a nominally 2h45m flight, they spent an extra 2 hours in the air, presumably doing doing fuel intensive altitude changing maneuvers, and were eventually able to land safely with their reserves almost exhausted. I’m a little confused by what there is to investigate at all. How much fuel should they have landed with?

Thirty minutes.

If at any point you expect to touch down at the nearest safe airport with less than 30 minutes of fuel remaining, you are required by regulation to make a mayday call.

Mayday is a term enshrined in law. It is only to be used when people will die if you do not receive help. In the US, calling it inappropriately can be punished with up to 10 years in jail and a $250k fine. It's protected in this way because as soon as you call mayday, in many situations there are actions that must be taken by law or regulation. Other appropriate uses include things like "our plane is on fire" or "our wing just fell off and we can't steer the plane".

As soon as you think you can't land with the fuel reserves you are _required_ to call mayday, other pilots are _required_ to clear the radio for you, and ATC is _required_ to provide any and all supported possible until you're on the ground.

The investigation is not to figure out who to send to jail or something. The investigation is because a flight just came this >But air travel did not become as safe as it with an attitude of "this hasn't killed anyone yet, all good". The fact there was an incursion into the safety margin should not be looked at as "eh, working as intended" but "holy hell we just came this close to disaster, what went wrong that almost killed all these people? how do we stop that happening again?". That is what an investigation will be looking to figure out.

To put it in vaguely IT terms, this is something like... your application has started corrupting its database, but you have _a_ backup copy. On one hand, you can think "eh, we have a backup, that's what it's there for, who cares". On the other you can go "holy shit, any time we need to restore from the backup we narrowly averted disaster... how do we make sure we're not in that situation again?". The former is probably going to lead to irrecoverable data loss eventually. The second will have you addressing problems _before_ they ruin you.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, when people say "flying has a high carbon footprint", they're not kidding . It's really quite massive. I don't fly any more.

Want to bake your noodle? Because the market responds to your behavior by slightly lowering the cost of flying to fill those seats, demand increases to match from slightly lower income people. Because they then organize their lives slightly more around cheap flights, it gets even harder to lower the impact of flying. Paradoxically, rich people like us (you're a tech worker too...) flying more, because we're less sens…

Clearly you have thought a lot about carbon reduction, so I have a question for you.

Is a plug in hybrid or EV less polluting if you don’t have rooftop solar?

edit: I think I know the general answer, but I’m splitting hairs comparing a replacement car for an ICE vehicle that I have.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#426
post #68

Under FAA rules this was a screwup. [edit: see my own reply] (However, the rules are subtle, so they can be partially forgiven.) However, I'm not only a dispatcher but also a philosophy BA, so I've found a good way to explain it. Your reserve fuel (the "extra" fuel over what the actual flight burn) can of course be used (hello, that's what it's there for) but—and here's the rub—you can never plan on using it. That is…

in what way do FAA rules apply to operators doing a European to UK flight in an airline that doesn't operate in the US?

See my comment, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45541096 [I am expert in CFR 14 Part 121, so I made reference to the regulations I'm qualified to directly speak on.]

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#427

That is very exceptional. I've written fuel estimation software for airliners (cargo, fortunately), and the number of rules regarding go-arounds, alternates and holding time resulted in there usually being quite a bit of fuel in the tanks on landing, by design. I've never heard of '6 minutes left' in practice where it wasn't a massive issue and the investigation into how this could have happened will make for interes…

"make speculative statements"

isn't this 99 percent of modern infotainment "journalism" though? making speculative statements, omitting and lying..

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#428
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naively as an outsider, this situation seems like everything worked as intended? On a nominally 2h45m flight, they spent an extra 2 hours in the air, presumably doing doing fuel intensive altitude changing maneuvers, and were eventually able to land safely with their reserves almost exhausted. I’m a little confused by what there is to investigate at all. How much fuel should they have landed with?

Thirty minutes. If at any point you expect to touch down at the nearest safe airport with less than 30 minutes of fuel remaining, you are required by regulation to make a mayday call. Mayday is a term enshrined in law. It is only to be used when people will die if you do not receive help. In the US, calling it inappropriately can be punished with up to 10 years in jail and a $250k fine. It's protected in this way bec…

> If at any point you expect to touch down at the nearest safe airport with less than 30 minutes of fuel remaining, you are required by regulation to make a mayday call.

From the article, they did issue a mayday call, when the closest airport was presumably Edinburgh. Then they flew to Manchester and landed.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#429
This happened in my country with I think a Vistara flight, where they had 5 minutes of fuel left.

I myself went from Bangalore to Delhi a couple of weeks back, and the poor pilots told the air hostesses at least twice or thrice to prepare for landing but the plane did not land until much much later.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#430
This one is pretty straightforward so it doesn't need an AAIB report. Failure of pilots to brief destination weather conditions and anticipate proper bingo fuel accordingly. Storms in the area == brief max go arounds, brief alternates, and carry extra fuel. They screwed up by taking unnecessary risks of too many go arounds and barely making an alternate because they didn't play it safe by carrying additional fuel. Take these bold pilots to the chief pilot's office for an uncomfortable conversation without tasty snacks.
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