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Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

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Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#421

Post by abustamam »

throwaway3060 wrote: post #360
abustamam wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what happened? Was it that people who typically vote blue voted against those who supported Israel? As a Muslim and staunch supporter of Palestine, I didn't think that many people turned red because of this, at least not enough to swing the election. Wayne County, which has Dearborn Michigan (the city with the largest population proportionally of Muslims), stayed blue. I figured if Dearborn couldn't tip the scal…

The bigger factor was people staying home because they refused any compromise on the issue. For races that swing depending on turnout, this was enough to tip those races red. Hard to say whether this impacted the Presidential election, but it probably did affect some House and Senate races.

Ah, that's a good point. Indeed, I voted Stein over Harris, which is basically the same as staying home (much to my chagrin).

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#422

Post by istjohn »

zen928 wrote: post #400
scarecrowbob wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the Democrats change their positions so that they align with and accommodate popular positions and win elections. I don't think most of the (rather large block) of folks I know who abstained wanted a fully solved problem, they wanted the US to stop funding Israel and that is a position that the Democratic party could have taken if they had chosen to do so.

Couldn't far left progressives run their own candidates to win their own elections on issues without siphoning unreciprocated one-way support from the Democrat party? Given the toxic outcomes of supporting purity testers who give ultimatums similar to yours on political issues completely unrelated to the average voters life, theres likely no mainstream party that would align with a platform of virtue signallers that…

"Saving people" is an Orwellian turn of phrase for not supplying the bombs that are dropped on hospitals and refugee camps. Does the commuter "save" the child playing in the street by not willfully plowing her over in his SUV?

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#424

Post by aprilthird2021 »

Aunche wrote: post #332
roenxi wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only the blue representatives would resolve this tension by pulling support for a now internationally-recognised genocide! :( I suppose that option is just too radical to put on the table.

The Biden administration brokered and pressured Israel into a ceasefire that asymmetrically disfavored them. Israel exchanged 30 Hamas militants per Israeli hostage. The ceasefire outlined a permanent resolution to the conflict, including Israel's full withdrawal from Gaza. They also pressured Israel to keep aid channels open during the war, which is exceptionally obvious now given significantly longer blockades and…

> On the other hand, there is no guarantee that completely cutting off ties with Israel, would make anything better for Gazans.

I agree with everything you said about Biden being practically better for Palestine, but this is nonsense. Israel would be a completely isolated state without US support. Even North Korea has China. The last completely isolated state in the world was South Africa whose apartheid ended as a result. It's not crazy to think Israelis might realize forcing people who have lived in the same country for generations to be stateless and voteless to preserve a "pure", "Jewish" state is not a worthwhile gamble if it costs them any connection to the outside world.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#425

Post by jjk166 »

therobots927 wrote: post #339
deanCommie wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that was always known to have been a counter-productive protest. There's nothing ironic about this. They were told. They didn't care. It was unambiguously clear that no matter how bad you felt Obama/Biden/Harris were on Israel, Trump was/would be worse. If every single human life is worth saving (and it is), it's indisputable that Trump is worse for Gaza than Harris would have been. It was the ultimate Trolley Pr…

The trolley problem is an oversimplification. What we have is actually a repeated trolley problem, where picking the least of two evils gives the “less evil” party a near infinite amount of leverage over you to demand your loyalty regardless of whether they give in to any of your requests. The “less evil” party is in effect holding the people tied to the tracks hostage in your trolley problem. Because “less evil” is…

> where picking the least of two evils gives the “less evil” party a near infinite amount of leverage over you to demand your loyalty regardless of whether they give in to any of your requests.

The less evil party commands no loyalty at all, you vote for it only so long as there are no better options. If we're presupposing that there will never be any other option but the greater evil, then the lesser evil very much should be voted for consistently. Why can't the other side be the one that needs to reform to better appeal to the voters interests? What is to stop the lesser evil from becoming more evil, catering to voters who actually show up?

If people voted for a third party, that would be one thing. Sure the odds of winning the election are slim, but a third party candidate needs only 5% of the vote for the party to get federal campaign funds, to say nothing of the increased legitimacy in upcoming elections. It's happened in my lifetime, it can happen again. A strong showing by a third party forces the major parties to adjust to avoid splitting the vote. Jill Stein of the Green Party was openly opposed to Israel's actions in Gaza, they could have voted for her. And while there they could have voted for down ballot candidates so one party doesn't get control of all branches of government. But they didn't; third parties had their worst election since 2012. Of the 6 million democrat votes lost from 2020 to 2024, 400,000 were picked up by the green party. You can't simultaneously accept that the two party system is the be all end all and that you don't have an obligation to vote for the better of the two parties. It's understandable that people unenthusiastic with the current political situation just want to disengage, but don't act like it's a noble act of protest. Staying home isn't playing the long game, it's just throwing away your vote.

> The neoliberals are to blame more than anyone else for the situation we’re in today. They love to deflect but they are complicit in everything going wrong right now.

That they could have done better doesn't reduce at all the blame of those who specifically worked towards creating the current situation, and those who saw what was happening and chose to do nothing.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#426

Post by aprilthird2021 »

abustamam wrote: post #421
throwaway3060 wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger factor was people staying home because they refused any compromise on the issue. For races that swing depending on turnout, this was enough to tip those races red. Hard to say whether this impacted the Presidential election, but it probably did affect some House and Senate races.

Ah, that's a good point. Indeed, I voted Stein over Harris, which is basically the same as staying home (much to my chagrin).

This is shocking to me tbh. Everyone I know who wants peace in Palestine also knew Trump would be a disaster and that Stein or whoever had 0 chance of winning...

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#427

Post by sporkxrocket »

ThrowMeAway1618 wrote: post #391
scarecrowbob wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the Democrats change their positions so that they align with and accommodate popular positions and win elections. I don't think most of the (rather large block) of folks I know who abstained wanted a fully solved problem, they wanted the US to stop funding Israel and that is a position that the Democratic party could have taken if they had chosen to do so.

[flagged]

The Democrats could simply not fund (and start) a genocide and easily win elections. Don't blame voters. I won't vote for anyone complicit with Israel, D or R. Ask yourself why it's so important to Democrats to support Israel, even when that means losing important elections. We've got big problems on our hands and it doesn't look like we'll be voting our way out of this, Israel has too much control over every aspect of our government.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#428

Post by istjohn »

Aunche wrote: post #332
roenxi wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only the blue representatives would resolve this tension by pulling support for a now internationally-recognised genocide! :( I suppose that option is just too radical to put on the table.

The Biden administration brokered and pressured Israel into a ceasefire that asymmetrically disfavored them. Israel exchanged 30 Hamas militants per Israeli hostage. The ceasefire outlined a permanent resolution to the conflict, including Israel's full withdrawal from Gaza. They also pressured Israel to keep aid channels open during the war, which is exceptionally obvious now given significantly longer blockades and…

Biden doesn't get credit for a few weeks of ceasefire after materially supporting the genocide for over a year.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#429

Post by sporkxrocket »

zen928 wrote: post #400
scarecrowbob wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't the Democrats change their positions so that they align with and accommodate popular positions and win elections. I don't think most of the (rather large block) of folks I know who abstained wanted a fully solved problem, they wanted the US to stop funding Israel and that is a position that the Democratic party could have taken if they had chosen to do so.

Couldn't far left progressives run their own candidates to win their own elections on issues without siphoning unreciprocated one-way support from the Democrat party? Given the toxic outcomes of supporting purity testers who give ultimatums similar to yours on political issues completely unrelated to the average voters life, theres likely no mainstream party that would align with a platform of virtue signallers that…

Not actively supporting a genocide isn't "virtue signalling". The Democrats will continue to lose until they face that reality. It's actually super gross to present the ethical will of voters like this.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#430

Post by abustamam »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #356
abustamam wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Wayne County, Michigan, which has Dearborn, stayed blue. Though I was honestly surprised at how much of my Muslim community was so anti-Harris that they voted for Trump. Harris may be pro-Israel, but Trump is anti-almost everything else we stand for.

> how much of my Muslim community was so anti-Harris that they voted for Trump I'm honestly split between pro-Palestinian Arab-American Trump voters and soybean-farming Trump voters as the stupidest voting blocks of 2024. Not only are you helping put someone in power who is so obviously going to work against your interests. You've also removed yourself from the other party's table where your issue might have gained p…

Tbh we are all victims of America's shitty two party system and voting system, and just reflective of how much power political pundits and influencers have. I think ranked choice voting would make fewer people vote against their own self interests.
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