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Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

proton.me

421–430 of 665 posts

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#421

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

I don't really agree with this framing. The fundamental issue is user ignorance, full stop. The fact is that our collective tech education is in a terrible state. Apple exploiting this to sell iPhones is just natural behavior for a profit-driven enterprise.

Instead of shaming Apple (which won't be very effective IMO), we should aim to improve education. Teach users how SMS/MMS/iMessage work. Tell them that they can install universal messaging apps and so on.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#422

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

There's something uniquely dystopian about tying emotional/social exclusion to a hardware upgrade

The evil is (so-called) social media in all of its forms. Human connections of all kinds have been comprehensively distorted and enshitified by unchecked corporate opportunism and manipulation.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#423
post #45
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the core of my contention is that: if you make the platform that others run on and which creates entirely new economies and allows businesses to thrive, don’t you get to define the constraints that you want since it’s _your_ platform? What’s effectively happening here is that companies are using the courts to force the design of OSes in a certain way: That only open OSes can ever be made, not closed ones. Huh,…

> Huh, the __user__ paid for the product, so they own it. After the user handed over their money, Apple has nothing to say about who I do business with on that product, or what the conditions are. But this is already the case. You own the device, you can do whatever you want with it (legally ofc). If I buy a fridge without a freezer, the fact that I can't freeze food with it doesn't mean I don't own the fridge. Furth…

Your freezer doesn't ask for 30% of every grocery you buy and doesn't forbid you from storing a broccoli in it just because the broccoli company didn't pay the tax to the fridge maker.

Every time you make those comparisons it becomes much clearer just how much of an overreach and danger to market capitalism Apples behaviour is.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#424
post #135

There is a lot I hate about building apps and releasing them on the App Store, and I'd be happy for there to be alternatives. But that said, I don't understand how its a monopoly. There is no requirement to build an app for iOS devices. There are other devices and means for software delivery out there. What makes their control of their own ecosystem monopolistic? As someone who has paid the apple tax for digital sale…

> There is no requirement to build an app for iOS devices. Either this is bad faith, or you are uninformed. > that's the cost of doing business. All the question is there. Is that the cost of doing business, or is Apple abusing their dominant position?

That's not bad faith. Go build another phone if you don't like it. Go be one of those weird freaks with a Graphene phone that can't access carrier RCS because Google says no.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#425
post #421

I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage, giving the impression that Apple phones were high technology, and interacting with peasant androids is what made group chats fragment and pictures and videos look like trash. Few things are more enraging than people being left out of chats with friends and family because they didn't bend over for Apple. Even…

I don't really agree with this framing. The fundamental issue is user ignorance, full stop. The fact is that our collective tech education is in a terrible state. Apple exploiting this to sell iPhones is just natural behavior for a profit-driven enterprise. Instead of shaming Apple (which won't be very effective IMO), we should aim to improve education. Teach users how SMS/MMS/iMessage work. Tell them that they can i…

Perhaps the fundamental issue is your ignorance? Don't you know that users require tools that just work and that they should not be required to understand all of this technical nuance?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#426
post #391
post #55

This is probably a controversial opinion but I actually use my iPhone because it's locked down with a curated app marketplace and secure payment system. I don't want alternative payment methods or app stores. So I find it distasteful that other companies are seeking to control Apple's product design through the legal system. They're essentially trying to make it impossible to purchase a product I want, which is more…

> This is probably a controversial opinion Not very. Plenty of people, including on HN, agree with you. > but I actually use my iPhone because it's locked down with a curated app marketplace and secure payment system. Except it’s not. That argument would be much stronger if the App Store weren’t full of scammy predatory apps which regularly top the top grossing charts . > I don't want alternative payment methods or a…

> Except it’s not. That argument would be much stronger if the App Store weren’t full of scammy predatory apps which regularly top the top grossing charts.

Not just that - they also actively interfere with search results for essential apps people need. Looking up government or banking apps in the iOS app store will always surface either dodgy insurance sellers or dodgy banks that aren't the one you want to use before the actual app you want to download.

The App Store's curation is absolutely horrendous - these are also bought/sponsored placements, meaning Apple is actively profiting off of people being led to these sorts of misleading apps.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#427
post #270

> Companies that monetize user data in exchange for “free” services that abuse your privacy aren’t affected by this [the app store tax], as they don’t process payments through the App Store. However, privacy-first companies that monetize through subscriptions are disproportionately hit by this fee, putting a major barrier toward the adoption of privacy-first business models. Huh. I’ve never seen it framed this way an…

I have disorganized thoughts about this, but it's not just a debate about vertical isolation vs not. 1. The size of Apple/Alphabet/Samsung makes it difficult to enter the market (see: factories having ridiculous MOQs for small-batch phone manufacturing), pushing everyone else out. 2. The size of the smartphone market makes it impossible to not have to deal with one of the above companies for certification, market pen…

Because of the close tie to services, there is no smartphone market. There is an android market and an iOS market.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#428
post #404

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

It doesn't stop at Apple's ecosystem. It also allows Apple to regulate the choices and privacy of the people and companies using their products. There's hardware, software, and there is data. Trying to control other people's data and taking away their freedom of choice regarding their data and services used is the issue. I don't own any Apple product, but I do admire occasionally how Apple tries to uphold the quality…

> I certainly hope Apple aspires to keep the quality of their hardware and software high. They should however never control user data or choice of third party services.

These two things are often at odds with each other. If people bought into the Apple ecosystem because of the walled garden, the regulators want to rip down those walls and turn it into a fundamentally different product. Bad 3rd party experiences can break the illusion of the perfect walled garden, which is why Apple has many of its rules. Though, I’d say that illusion has already been broken for many, due to a bunch of apps with timed ad pop-ups and other such nonsense. I won’t allow any of that on my phone, but most people do.

I’ve read articles from developers that say they offer options on iOS to go ad-free, while similar options don’t exist on Android for the same app, since not enough people do it and they can make more on ads (I believe I read this from the Angry Birds devs years ago). I would find this unacceptable as a user. I don’t think this is a rule from Apple, but rather differences in the types of users that gravitate to the various platforms; or maybe it’s simply comfort and trust in Apple to process all the payments. I think it should be a rule that any app with ads has the ability to remove them for a price. For smaller apps, I would have a lot less comfort doing this if it didn’t go through Apple (or some similarly large company). I would be very sad if the monkey paw from this lawsuit was that I end up with apps full of ads that I can’t remove, or don’t feel safe removing. This would fly in the face of Proton’s goals as well.

There is also the registration side of things. Today, I can get an app without an account for it, buy it, delete it, and if I re-download it, I can restore that purchase. Going through the developer means yet another account to manage, track, and entrusting another 3rd party.

I paid $30 a couple weeks ago for lifetime access to the “pro” version of an app I’ve been using. I don’t think I would have done that if I would have had to make an account and all that. It would be too much friction and I don’t know enough about the dev. So the dev got $21-25 from me, instead of the alternative, which would have been 0. And that’s what starts the downward spiral toward ads everywhere, which degrades the whole experience.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#429
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is not forced into doing business in Europe, because there are a multitude of other anticompetitive tolerant regions (much larger than Europe mind you) they can do business in. If Apple prefers anticompetitive practices, it can simply only do business in those regions.

I'm curious what becomes the breaking point for them to pull out of a region. Obviously it's about profit but at what point (if any) does it make profitable sense for them to leave?

A point we're still lightyears away from. The lengths they go to in order to operate in China are magnitudes greater than to operate in the EU, yet EU makes them $10+ billion more profit than China.

What would actually happen is that the US would start seriously threatening (blackmailing) the EU to a degree where it's forced to relent long before Apple would pull out.

Apple's estimated operating profit from the EU is around $40 billion dollars. If the US government wouldn't get involved, they could force Tim Apple himself to live on top of the Alps and he'd happily do it rather than lose that $40 billion, or shareholders would vote him out ASAP.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#430
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Huh, the __user__ paid for the product, so they own it. After the user handed over their money, Apple has nothing to say about who I do business with on that product, or what the conditions are. But this is already the case. You own the device, you can do whatever you want with it (legally ofc). If I buy a fridge without a freezer, the fact that I can't freeze food with it doesn't mean I don't own the fridge. Furth…

If you pay for a product and it is tied to a vendor, then you should be able to completely break all ties with that vendor and switch to a different service provider, and still be able to use the product as advertised. Otherwise you don't own the product. This basic premise doesn't hold for Apple products. And by the way, I think consumer rights are more important than rights of companies to do whatever they want.

To give an idea on how much this holds true: I have an old iphone lying around somewhere. It's a perfectly functioning device (barring the battery), I have a cable for it and everything. I wanted to use it as an audio player - plug an AUX cable in it, play some tunes. It's a good way to reuse older phones.

Except I can't activate the fucking thing. It demands a SIM card. Trying to activate or reset it on PC just has iTunes spit out a generic failure message. Apparently it can't contact some activation server.

I have a perfectly usable iPhone. Apple decided on its own that it's a brick now. It's irrevocably tied to the vendor.

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