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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#421

Post by monooso »

eastbound wrote: post #393
vFunct wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> In any case, Israel doesn't even have the right to exist It does: UN resolution, 1967. That you do not recognize an entire state to exist is an admission to preparing a genocide. The fact that 4 countries around Israel are preparing genocide justifies Israel’s measures are reasonable to maintain peace. What is reasonable? Well it’s not like Gaza didn’t start the shooting with 7000 rockets pre-October festival (I wa…

> That you do not recognize an entire state to exist is an admission to preparing a genocide.

Israel doesn't recognise Palestine as a state, so by your own definition Israel is preparing a genocide.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#422

Post by anton-c »

maeil wrote: post #248
xg15 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm German and I really see a lot of the blame for this on our states as well - the US and the EU states (especially Germany, sadly). As horrible as the Israeli mindset is, their subjective viewpoint is at least somewhat relatable: An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, just learns that the entirety of the surrounding populations want them dead - and will with very high likelihood exper…

I'm Swedish. Since I was a child, for decades, I was taught and never questioned the idea that Germany had learnt from their history, in the most admirable way. That it was really ingrained into the German culture to never let anything like the holocaust happen again. That the education system there was very good in really making people understand why it happened, what went wrong, and how to make sure there would be…

I am interested to know why you call out Japan as learning nothing. Obviously modern Japan has an excellent reputation and is not known as a warring nation( "no military" but ofc they have the JDF) so I'm guessing there's something deeper I don't know. Genuinely curious.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#423

Post by arp242 »

Theodores wrote: post #141
lordofgibbons wrote: post #73

This genocide has, for many people, burst any illusions of a "rules based world order". There multiple EU signatory countries of the Rome Statute (pledging to cooperate with ICC) that have welcomed these war criminals... who have warrants out by the ICC. And the same war criminals are invited to give a speech at the U.S Congress to near unanimous applause. It really makes you wonder if we're the "good guys". -- edit…

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> Crimea, where everyone speaks Russian and identifies as Russian

Blatant falsehood. In 2014 it was about 65% (ethnicity) and 80% (language).

In addition the referendum happened after the invasion and de-facto annexation, without the option of "keep the current situation with Ukraine". If you ask me "do you want to be punched or stabbed?" then I'll choose a punch. Doesn't mean I want to be punched.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#424

Post by rexpop »

IAmGraydon wrote: post #381

I’m not going to claim a side in this, but I do have a question to pose. When you have two ideologies which are so diametrically opposed to each other that they cannot coexist in the same space at the same time, what is the alternative outcome? One must destroy the other for peace to exist - this is the nature of war. To think that there is some world where everyone comes away from this with a handshake and an agreem…

> two ideologies which are so diametrically opposed to each other that they cannot coexist

Ideologies aren't platonic solids. They must be constantly refurbished in the minds of the avowed. Every moment of every day informs them—reinforces or depletes them. Changes their character.

It's guaranteed that these minds will, eventually, change. Who survives to bare this change remains to be seen.

Keep in mind, also, that Israel vs. Gaza is in some ways just a proxy war between US/Europe and Iran/Russia who support Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis. Ideological differences, frankly, are only a surface patina on the same old economic games.

Lastly, consider a third framing: that Israel/Gaza is only the hottest segment of a conflict that encircles the globe: the border between imperial powers and colonized peoples, like US/Mexico etc. Borders, passports, and citizenship are a worldwide system of privileges and protections that Westphalian Nationstates collude to maintain.

I'm not sure what ideologies you refer to. Islam and Judaism? Not really relevant to the discussion, I don't think.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#426

Post by cmilton »

Newtonip wrote: post #310
alluro2 wrote: post #177

I visited Israel for a sports seminar some ~10 years ago and met many nice people. I felt sympathetic to their reality of living in an ever-hostile environment from all sides, and struggle to keep their place in the world safe. I admired their resilience and strength. When this Gaza conflict started, I saw how the Israeli protested against their government and demanded peace, so I thought there is a semblance of an e…

It's a state founded on ethnic cleansing. People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves. In late 1947, their militias begun a campaign of massacring and expelling Palestinians from mostly defenseless villages. These refuges pouring into neighboring Arab countries is what prompted the 1948 war. When the war ended, they murdered any civilians trying to return to their homes…

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#427

Post by arp242 »

breppp wrote: post #398
Newtonip wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a state founded on ethnic cleansing. People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves. In late 1947, their militias begun a campaign of massacring and expelling Palestinians from mostly defenseless villages. These refuges pouring into neighboring Arab countries is what prompted the 1948 war. When the war ended, they murdered any civilians trying to return to their homes…

[flagged]

The difference is that e.g. Māori or native Americans and whatnot are full citizens with full rights.

The "founded on ethnic cleansing" is not the most important bit from the previous post. It's the "ethnic cleansing and denial of rights has continued ever since" that's the most important bit.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#428

Post by stormfather »

srj wrote: post #363
sdeframond wrote: post #183

As a westerner, I feel ashamed that my country is Isreal's ally. It makes me guilty by association because the western world is letting Israel commit thoses atrocities. Worse, we are helping them when they need it, and closing our eyes when they don't want us to watch.

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#429

Post by anton-c »

wat10000 wrote: post #355
barbazoo wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people are manipulated by the media and by their government and by their spiritual leaders.

Could be, but that doesn’t really matter in the end. Support is support.

You were judging the morality of the people in your above comment. Being manipulated into giving support doesn't make the people bad.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#430

Post by watwut »

avip wrote: post #302
watwut wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think this simplification works. A lot of the conflict is about systematic attempts at expansion of Israel itself - that is what settlements are and always were. Removal and mistreatment of original population went hand in hand with that.

Are we talking about the expansion out of Lebanon in 2000 or the expansion out of Gaza in 2005?

We are talking about all settlements into territory that was not Israel's regardless of the year. The settlements like that are internationally illegal precisely because they are clear attempt to use civilian population as shields in a land takeover.
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