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How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

spectrum.ieee.org

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Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#421

Post by quanto »

hkpack wrote: post #404
klooney wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> supply chain for drones requires the stability and resource extraction on the scale of a state It's all about China. They have the ability to cut off drone production for the rest of the world.

Not really. All parts are produced in other countries as well, although with slightly higher prices.

I would like to see evidence behind this claim on two fronts: 1. all parts are produced in other countries 2. slightly higher prices

There are countries (including Ukraine) that produce on-board flight controllers, but the controllers themselves often rely on components from China. I actually do think it is feasible to create a passable quadrotor using non-Chinese components only but I do not know of a rigorous study or a manufacturer that does this.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#422

Post by major505 »

grg0 wrote: post #384
major505 wrote: post #54

TO know more, here is a brief presentation about drones in Ukrain War. https://youtu.be/5xN__ozrbpk?si=vuBtFEcOlgerrVwa I specially apretiate the small mine clearing drones.

Damn, 70% of casualties on both sides caused by drones? That really puts things into perspective.

yeah, In a conventional war, it would be artilary, but Ukrain dont have enough of it, so it started using drones in its place.

Looke at the fields, now covered in optic fiber. I cant even imagine the cleaning efforts that will be needed after the war. to get rid of that.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#423

Post by lenerdenator »

timeon wrote: post #286
jajko wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know how many they still had operational? Not that many, somewhere between 50 (more realistic) and 100 (rather idealistic if the rest was fully gutted for equipment). This was a massive damage, not directly interfering with war against Ukraine that much, but overall power projection. Plus a pretty good insult to russian's FSB and GRU services who had no clue, just like today's Crimea bridge blow.

> russian's FSB and GRU services who had no clue I do not want to give any credit to russian secret service but as we have seen in 9/11 and 7th October - secret services in any country are sometimes clueless.

You'd think that they'd be a little more in-tune to this sort of thing given the fact that Russia is a far more controlled society than the US or UK, and that they're at war with a country on their borders.

Oh well. Nothing that vodka and a window can't solve.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#424

Post by hkpack »

quanto wrote: post #421
hkpack wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. All parts are produced in other countries as well, although with slightly higher prices.

I would like to see evidence behind this claim on two fronts: 1. all parts are produced in other countries 2. slightly higher prices There are countries (including Ukraine) that produce on-board flight controllers, but the controllers themselves often rely on components from China. I actually do think it is feasible to create a passable quadrotor using non-Chinese components only but I do not know of a rigorous study…

I would not provide you with links, sorry. I follow different drone manufactures and over the last years they all had periodic issues sourcing components from China including chips for flight controllers so they found alternatives (i.e. not manufactured in China) for all major components AFAIK .

I've heard that the most difficult to replace is the camera sensor. Drone cameras are produced now in Ukraine as well, however non-Chinese sensors as far as I know are very expensive.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#425

Post by nostrademons »

tcptomato wrote: post #420
nostrademons wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that we haven't had more drone terror attacks says more about the technological slowness of terrorists than its infeasibility. Also motivation and incentives. The reason we haven't seen many drone attacks on civilians is that it is far more lucrative to get civilians to buy your product than to kill them, and the companies that actually have the resources to mount a credible drone attack are making a lot m…

3000 people died on 9/11 alone. Spreading it over 50 years, makes it 60/year. Where did you get the 4 from?

It's the median, not the mean. Here's the raw data:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States

The median is more relevant than the mean simply because it's less sensitive to outliers. 9/11 was an outlier; 85% of all U.S. terrorist deaths in the last 50 years happened on that one day.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#427

Post by mrandish »

randomtoast wrote: post #402
mrandish wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To reduce latency, I wonder if the phones were connecting to a covert site in Russia which had a high-bandwidth, lower-latency wired link, maybe a front company established in Russia for the operation with servers and broadband internet connections. Or maybe just a colocated server at a major backbone site in Russia was rented by a Russian front company. Seems like the kind of thing intelligence services do. While I'…

Okay, and GPS is restricted near military installations, but mobile internet remains accessible?

Yes, I assume it probably does except maybe during periods of elevated alert. A large military airbase capable of being home base to bombers is like a small city, with thousands of civilian workers.

Anyway, the drones used mobile internet between the launch point outside the base and the pilots in Ukraine. The connection between the launch point and the drones was point-to-point drone control frequencies which does not use the mobile phone network.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#428

Post by 0x457 »

RenThraysk wrote: post #219
0x457 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lmao what? You want to loiter with a camera drone to guide other drones to target? How would that work if neither drone knows where it is (drones had no GPS lock, it's a fact, not a speculation)?

They knew where they started from. Know where the target is relative to the start point.

> Know where the target is relative to the start point.

How? Without GPS, it's navigation capabilities lower than V-2 rocket.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#429

Post by I-M-S »

seadan83 wrote: post #324
vasco wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an engineer, I am fascinated by it all. As a human, I am horrified that we democratized violence on this scale. How do you even defend against this in a terrorist use case? When a small drone with a grenade or homemade explosive is so accessible? Any Christmas market in central Europe these days is surrounded by car barriers to prevent mass run-overs, but what do you do when soon someone has the idea of dropping…

> How do you even defend against this in a terrorist use case? You can't, and you don't. That is why it is called terrorism. Safety and freedom are sometimes antagonistic goals. This is an example. Terrorism is defended against by not changing society despite the terrorism. It is violence with a political goal, if the politics do not change, the terrorism fails. Not every soft target can (nor should be) hardened, the…

Interesting, my take is completely the opposite - you defend against terrorism precisely by changing the society as the material circumstances change, so that the disenfranchised can have their interests represented and achieve a political goal without having to blow stuff up.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#430

Post by I-M-S »

stavros wrote: post #394
heavyset_go wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What am I missing? Battery degradation, a year or two's worth of leaves and debris accumulating on and around the drones, literally all of the elements affecting them, animals, etc.

If I've gone to the hassle of setting up a high tech bombing attack, wouldn't I have also gone to the trouble of putting the drone in a self-opening container?

Everything mentioned affects the operation of a self-opening container as well.
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