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Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

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421–430 of 848 posts

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#421

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20 years ago each city/province was basically its own closed market. So if you were driving a car in CQ, it was probably bought and even made in CQ. They simply required that the horns be disabled. China internally is much more of a free market now, so I’m not sure how they could just disable horns anymore, although you still can’t get away with driving an outside register vehicle inside a city for very long without…

Was actually quite surprised by how "civilized" the driving was in our recent China trip. Don't think I heard a horn once in probably 20h or so as a passenger, did find the drivers up in Heliongjiang a bit bold with their lane weaving but in Beijing they drove great! Clear rules, and consistent enforcement works. Noticed something similar with littering, right now they have to employ an army of old folks to pick up c…

Dongbei drivers are famous for their interesting driving (but I’m going by hearsay and that one famous song about it).

I don’t think horns were used much in Beijing even on my first trip in 1999, although I do remember the Japanese guy driving us from the airport in a Jeep using it (and also seeing lots of city buses out at night without headlights on, you don’t see that anymore).

I just got back from Beijing a couple of weeks ago and honestly…the traffic is still very horrible but fairly orderly. Just too many cars and not enough roads (but it’s always been like that).

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#422
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mazda also managed to squander a huge brand and structural advantage by falling into lockstep behind other Japanese automakers in underinvesting in EV manufacturing infrastructure. Now they have to rely on their JV partner Changan to lead the way in producing EVs, giving up the core structural strengths that Mazda previously had in designing and building their own components - including software and controls, which i…

While that might affect their market share in HN neighborhoods I assure you Mazda is making money hand over fist selling their boring non-hybrid SUVs to normal people. People love them and they sell.

I know Mazda makes good boring SUVs, I own one. I like Mazda's design philosophy, that's why I want them to succeed. In terms of vehicles sold, Mazda's sales peaked in 2017, the year before I bought my most recent one. As best I can tell, operating profit peaked in 2016.

Mazda maintained their relevance and independence by operating their own center of design, engineering, and manufacturing excellence in Hiroshima, and exporting the results to the rest of the world, since at least the 1960s. As I mentioned, that thread is now broken as far as EVs go, with the Changan JV making EVs for Mazda. China is now producing excellent EVs that surpass the capabilities of ICE cars at a fraction of the cost/price, thanks to continuous improvements in LFP battery technology. China also dominates solar, which (together with the batteries) solves the grid stress issue for large EV deployments in most regions of the world. Together these exports are likely to disrupt Japanese, US, and European ICE exports and energy markets throughout the world, no matter what tariffs the US chooses to enact.

Mazda and the rest of Japanese companies slept on it, led by Toyota's trust in the hydrogen-powered future that didn't materialize, even while Panasonic had the best batteries in the world. The time to invest in these platforms and technologies was 15 years ago - now they will have a far harder time financing this and finding technology development partners. Sure, they can survive - not thrive - on existing ICE exports for a while, but they will face a shrinking market and stronger headwinds - and are likely to lose their independence, which is what allowed them to design great cars. Don't believe me? Look into what's going on with Nissan (which squandered an even bigger lead - the world's first mass-produced EV).

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was actually quite surprised by how "civilized" the driving was in our recent China trip. Don't think I heard a horn once in probably 20h or so as a passenger, did find the drivers up in Heliongjiang a bit bold with their lane weaving but in Beijing they drove great! Clear rules, and consistent enforcement works. Noticed something similar with littering, right now they have to employ an army of old folks to pick up c…

Dongbei drivers are famous for their interesting driving (but I’m going by hearsay and that one famous song about it). I don’t think horns were used much in Beijing even on my first trip in 1999, although I do remember the Japanese guy driving us from the airport in a Jeep using it (and also seeing lots of city buses out at night without headlights on, you don’t see that anymore). I just got back from Beijing a coupl…

Yeh the congestion on Beijing's ring roads is pretty awful. Orderly but awful, also less EVs than ideal.

Have a friend from Shanghai here in Germany that had a really hard time getting a drivers license due to her old driving habits. Aggressively cutting in front of people and horning isn't looked upon too highly here.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They go for cheapest component they can spec for a given feature cutting 4MB memory will save 5 cents per car, we sell half a million cars, that’s big savings! I'm tired. Been out in the sun all day. Explain this to me please. When I do the math I get 500000 * $0.05 = $25000 That's a small drop in a large bucket of their gross income or net profits. EDIT: Harsh sun must've burned a few of my processors. I see now t…

It’s very obviously a rhetorical exaggeration.

Yes sometimes it’s a dollar or two and it really adds up quick. Sometimes 10’s of dollars. That door speaker can be few dollars cheap - you may get 2% more THD in a frequency band… the conversations can be really reduced down to ‘meh subjectively not noticeable’ but will save us a million. Add few of these things and now you have a shitty radio system but 5 mil in bank.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#425

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I totally agree with what you say. I am just not sure if the car market is willing to pay a premium to have this nicer fully integrated experience. Maybe there is space for a couple of premium makers.

My preference would be do less! Shift all the nav and entertainment to phone integration; stop trying to make half assed shit versions of those. How many billions were spent on that?

Oh we don’t want Google Amazon and Apple to have the cake and eat it too. See GM Rivian and Tesla not supporting CarPlay and AndroidAuto.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#426

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Programming embedded devices is not the same thing as "embedded-systems programming". The latter means, first and foremost, that the software is not allowed to crash, ever, for any reason, else it is people's lives. I did some initial requirements work on a system to monitor continuous-web papermaking machinery; the line had to be stopped, physically and completely, within 100ms if anything went wrong, because an unc…

Why do the hardware companies make things so difficult? If I were selling hardware I’d want it to be as open and well documented as possible. So that more people buy it and so that I get credit for all the great stuff people make with my products.

There are a few reasons, using the hardware manufacturers’ logic.

1) The more you open up your design and its behaviour, the more your competitors can learn about your product and how to possibly improve their own. Even stuff as basic as what specific features/capabilities a specific SKU at a specific price point has can be useful information.

2) The behaviour may be sufficiently undefined as to make documenting it impractical (or a bad look). Specs may also be padded (“up to 14 bits of SNR” may mean you’re getting 8 most of the time unless you’ve got a golden sample, and you’re not getting the distribution without paying big bucks and signing a big NDA). This ties in with 1) - if your competitors know your exact yields, they might be able to advertise being better/more reliable more truthfully, or even cheap out on their manufacturing a bit to drop their own yields down to match or just slightly beat yours.

3) The behaviour might be unknown. There’s obviously a crazy amount of validation testing that goes into high-end chips, but even the best test plan can miss things. This is especially true when you’re talking about high-speed stuff and anything involving power delivery/voltage fluctuations, or async/pipeline executions, or a million other things that can go wrong. Again ties into 1) - if your competitor knows that your chip might deadlock the radio with an obscure pattern of inputs and control signals, that could give them insight into how you’ve laid out your silicon and might give them optimization ideas.

4) If all the available info is given out freely, then potential customers can easily compare manufacturers and pick the best one. The manufacturers don’t want this, unless they’re the best, for obvious reasons. And, because everything’s locked down so tightly, no one knows if they’re the best until the chips are on the market and the volume contracts are already signed. And those contracts are hard to break, since the specs agreed upon are pretty vague due to 1-3.

5) The manufacturer knows their chips suck, but needs them moved anyways. This is rarely the case from most non-discount manufacturers, but it can happen. In this case, you don’t want to give away anything you don’t have to, because most info you give out is going to drive customers away to a better option. Good example in the consumer space is Intel refusing to publish acceptable voltage specs for their 12-14th gen Core chips, which resulted in motherboard manufacturers overvolting and killing high-end CPUs to try to meet the frequency specs Intel was advertising. If Intel was truthful in their voltage and frequency specs, there’d be a minuscule percentage of chips that could actually hit the advertised frequency at safe voltages, and 99% would have worse performance than expected, which would almost definitely result in lower sales.

6) The behaviour may be highly dependent on external factors. Basic example, a chip with external DRAM might have its execution pipeline stalled more or less frequently based of DRAM spec, or a wobbly voltage regulator might be known to cause lockups when certain executions are happening. Are you going to tell your customer those problems, or just say “we recommend high-speed DRAM and high-quality VRMs?” Especially if the other guy just says “we recommend high-speed DRAM and high-quality VRMs?”

The world would likely be a better place without such logic, but the incentive is there. Until someone comes and breaks the paradigm, I don’t see things changing.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#427

Embedded-systems programming is not taught, and no one is willing to pay for training. The result is that development is outsourced to entities that claim, falsely, to have the knowledge. Eventually the consequences of the fact that they do not have the knowledge surface in an undeniable manner, and the only way to cover is to make a great show of a fresh start. (This affects all industries, not just automotive, but…

Companies are not willing to pay what the people who know embedded deserve. $150,000, $200,000 and up for a JavaScript webshit "engineer", $100,000 max if you work in embedded, unless you have a super specialist knowledge maintaining software on NASA's remaining PDP-11s or whatever that they can't afford to lose .

Fortunately that is incorrect. I mentioned in another comment, but I’m well over $100k USD equivalent in salary alone as an embedded engineer, working in a relatively low cost of living area in Canada, graduated 3 years ago. Working for a “regular” company.

Maybe things just really suck for embedded in the states? But since my last year of university I’ve been inundated with recruiters for embedded positions, and I’ve never had a problem finding work. ~75th percentile in salary alone for software engineers in my area, ~55th-60th for Canada. I make more than every JS developer I know who graduated with me, except for the ones who moved to Seattle, Vancouver, or the Bay.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#428
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure this is exactly the problem. It sounds like turning the car into a platform with changeable parts has caused both organizational and technical problems. To be fair, im still not sold that this is an advancement except maybe in simplifying the number of components. I'd prefer the car to work without "updates" and DLC. Why does my car need a firewall??

It's not practical to produce a car that never needs updates. That would be a bug-free system, which is impossible. Since they're going to ship updates anyway, a lot of focus is on minimizing the cost and hence OTA. For what it's worth, I work in this industry and the general rule of thumb is that every increase in validation from QM (standard quality) up to the various levels of safety critical code has up to 10x th…

> It's not practical to produce a car that never needs updates. That would be a bug-free system, which is impossible.

Hmm, I disagree. Bug-free systems are expensive and hard, and get more expensive and harder as complexity increases, but you can absolutely produce a car that never needs updates. The vast majority of computer-controlled cars from the 80s to the early 2010s never needed updates, and the ones that did were performed at dealers (and were usually for non-critical things, because the critical things were simple).

GM had a good run in from the mid-90s to the mid-00s producing bug-free cars, even with some complexity. I don’t know of any software issues on any cars with LT1 or 3800 engines, nor with any of the tech in the Northstar Cadillacs. Displacement-on-demand could be considered a buggy implementation, but it was working as designed, and never got patched out, so I don’t think it counts.

That’s of course ignoring the decades of cars that had no computers at all. No software bugs being patched out with OTA updates in a carburetter (you have other problems obviously though, namely terrible fuel economy and emissions, and generally lower reliability).

If you make it a hard requirement for a car to be bug-free (maybe outlaw OTA updates and force physical recalls on any software problem?) I can guarantee manufacturers can make a bug-free car. It’ll just be way less complex and have way fewer flashy features, and will either cost more or have lower margins. It’s been done in the past, it can be done again.

There is a sweet spot for the level of computerization in cars. We had it somewhere around the year 2000, then waaaaay overshot, and haven’t corrected back.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#429
post #110

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The Slate truck won’t have CarPlay because it won’t have infotainment at all. If you want Carplay buy one of the dozens of offerings from companies like Alpine and have it installed at one of the thousands of stereo shops across the country. You’ll get exactly what you want from experts in what you want.

Or 3d print a mount for my old iPad and not need CarPlay at all.

Sure, that’s the point of the slate truck! Seems like a car for 3d printing enthusiasts.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that might affect their market share in HN neighborhoods I assure you Mazda is making money hand over fist selling their boring non-hybrid SUVs to normal people. People love them and they sell.

They have a low single digit percentage profit margin. That is not making money hand over fist, that is barely surviving. https://www.mazda.com/content/dam/mazda/corporate/mazda-com/...

Mazda’s operating margin is higher than Walmart’s (along with many others). I think hyper scalable sectors like high tech and finance distort our OM expectations.
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