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Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

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Re: Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy do I have some bad news for you: Automated Content Recognition [0, 1, 2]. If your Smart TV is connected to the Internet, it can also track what you're watching or doing, even if you're using it as an external monitor [3] (in Dutch). [0]: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41658828 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41669765 [3]: https:/…

Why would it be connected to internet if used as external monitor? Just don't tell it the wi fi password.

Sorry for the delay in my response.

To answer your question directly: I'm pointing out unexpected privacy pitfalls of using a smart TV's full set of features (i.e. running apps and using it ... as a monitor).

Although I agree with the point of your solution... I disagree with minimizing the danger of such anti-features.

To elaborate, try thinking of your average reasonable person and think of their journey into learning how to preserve their privacy without losing access to the features of the services and products they have paid for. Without a massive effort it is ultimately an oxymoron.

A reasonable person would expect that your (internet connected) smart TV would collect info to help them tailor future products based on their customer's usage (app usage frequency, standard or cable usage frequency, frequency of usage as external monitor). You would not expect to have to watch what you say in front of the such a device because they're literally listening to you [0] (in 2015, you needed to use the remote to use the voice detection service).

Additionally, reasonable user's of smart TV's (and other IoT devices) might feel like they are no longer tracked with their uniquely identifiable information because they turned off "targeted advertising" (if the service allows for setting that option), but that only prevents their advertising ID from being tracked [1].

Moreover, a reasonable person might expect that using a DNS-based blocklist would be a sort of "revocation of consent" to being tracked, but tracking services are savvy when it comes to PII exfiltration [2]:

> [...] We find that personally identifiable information (PII) is exfiltrated to platform-related Internet endpoints and third parties, and that blocklists are generally better at preventing exposure of PII to third parties than to platform-related endpoints. [...]

Finally, there have also been studies that show a lack of transparency when it comes to GDPR requests about the data collected through Automatic Content Recognition (ACR) [3].

So, my point is that "just don't use your product for most of its intended use" might be a thought-terminating cliche that prevents us from taking a step forward in stopping the normalization of unreasonable privacy transgressions (PII exfiltration, audio spying by third-party service providers, monitoring of external devices' screens).

[0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31296188

[1]: https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/11/20908128/smart-tv-survei...

[2]: https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.03447

[3]: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/electronic-electrical-engineering/news...

Re: Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy do I have some bad news for you: Automated Content Recognition [0, 1, 2]. If your Smart TV is connected to the Internet, it can also track what you're watching or doing, even if you're using it as an external monitor [3] (in Dutch). [0]: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41658828 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41669765 [3]: https:/…

We're talking about phones here, not TVs. Or are you saying this is built into phones too?

TL;DR: I'm of the opinion that the answer is probably "not yet", "it's in the works", or "it's already here, but not yet widely known".

In short, I couldn't find strong conclusive evidence for "yes" or "no".

The Wikipedia article on ACR [0] seems to be quoting CIO-Wiki [1] --- or vice-versa. The statement would imply "yes":

> Real-time audience measurement metrics are now achievable by applying ACR technology into smart TVs, set top boxes and mobile devices such as smart phones and tablets. This measurement data is essential to quantify audience consumption to set advertising pricing policies.

On the other hand, a paper on ACR [2] implies it only occurs on TV's (so, this points us towards "no"):

> [...] Unlike traditional online tracking in the web and mobile ecosystems that is typically implemented by third-party libraries/SDKs included in websites/apps, ACR is typically directly integrated in the smart TV’s operating system. [...]

... but then, in its conclusion one could make the case for "not yet" as they reference Microsoft's Recall (this, to me, makes me lean on "not yet"):

> [...] Finally, although different than ACR, our auditing approach can be adopted to assess privacy risks of Recall (Microsoft, 2024) – which analyzes snapshots of the screen using generative AI (Warren, 2024). [...]

Collecting my thoughts on this paper, I'm a bit disappointed that we seem to have a double-standard for the nomenclature: if the content recognition happens on a PC, then it's labeled as "generative AI" (should've probably been called LLM by the authors) and if it takes place on a TV-shaped computer (they're mostly Android TV's, after all, right?) then it's called ACR. I think that it has not been properly articulated that what people are worried about [3] is that Microsoft's Windows Recall is (or will become) "ACR with extra steps".

To conclude (and extend this to the mobile phone domain), I'll leave a "thought experiment": is all the AI processing power on new mobile phones going to be used exclusively by the users, and for the users?

-----

Some nuanced notes...

I'm conflicted about whether to demonize ACR entirely or not. To me, "ACR" means something that is running all the time listening to user's surroundings or screenshotting a user's displayed information for the purposes of improving targeting or tracking their behavior (this seems to match Wikipedia's definition at first glance). I am in part validated by [2] as well:

> [...] At a high level, ACR works by periodically capturing the content displayed on a TV’s screen and matching it against a content library to detect the content being viewed on the TV. It is essentially a Shazam-like technology for audio/video content on the smart TV (Mohamed Al Elew, 2023).

However, after doing some research, I discovered that a particular knowledge field may be misusing the term (or using the ACR term for lack of a better term like "reverse image search" or "content-based image retrieval" --- CBIR, CBVIR, QBIC --- in their vocabulary), and perhaps in the process inadvertently "whitewashing" the term.

Take, for example, the European Union's Intellectual Property Office's (EUIPO's) discussion paper titled "Automated Content Recognition: Discussion Paper – Phase 2 ‘IP enforcement and management use cases’" [4] (PDF). I think that they are conflating some terms like hashing, fingerprinting, watermarking and labeling it under the ACR term, then they're making valid-sounding use-cases like "smartphone solutions to detect genuine or counterfeit products" (products, by definition, are not content,... so I fail to see how ACR ties in). Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can correct me if I'm misreading the paper (I am no IP lawyer, but have worked as an Information Security Officer).

I think the EUIPO paper also glosses over some possible privacy implications: e.g., they link to an article called "Are 3D printed watermarks a “grave and growing” threat to people’s privacy?" [5], but in the context of using "RFID tags or serial numbers" to protect IP on 3D printed objects ... they do not discuss the possible privacy implications of, for example, being tracked by a possible "RFID-tag-cloud" of such objects. I know that this is beyond the scope of "is there ACR running on mobile phones", but I wanted to showcase what I think is the misuse of the ACR term to expand into the physical --- "offline" --- world, in the process losing its more "academic" meaning.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognition

[1]: https://cio-wiki.org/wiki/Automatic_Content_Recognition_(ACR...

[2]: https://arxiv.org/html/2409.06203v1

[3]: https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/micr...

[4]: https://euipo.europa.eu/tunnel-web/secure/webdav/guest/docum...

[5]: https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/are-3d-printed-watermark...

Re: Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

#423
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counterpoint I type at around 90wpm on a physical keyboard (preference is for low carry), but thumb type over 130wpm on a modestly large touch screen keyboard. The quality of the auto-correction afforded by the operating system matters quite a bit.

Yeah sure, but how does that work e.g. for code? I wrote 75% of my MA thesis on my phone while waiting for the bus. But that is text that the keyboard was good at predicting — when you have to write a lot of cryptic symbols all of that falls apart pretty quickly.

The solution is to just not try to type LaTeX on your phone. I'm not sure what else to say.

Re: Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

#424
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a Huawei P20 Pro that did much the same back in 2018. I never really used it for much, a bit of light browsing and really just as a gimmick, buit yeah, there was a desktop of sorts and you could use all the apps, and the touchpad/mouse thing worked. You could attach a bluetooth keyboard too, IIRC. Kindof a shame my iphone doesn't do this (I assume, I haven't tried), but I'm not sure if I'd use it.

iPhone has good support for peripherals, hubs and external displays, but lacks a desktop mode.

OK so I've now tried this with a new USB-C iphone.

Yeah it's painful to use! You can set up a mouse, and use a physical keyboard for input, but it doesn't attempt to do any more than mirror the screen onto the external device by default.

Huawei's desktop mode was limited, but I think you're right - you can say the iphone has good device compatibility, but there's not a good way to use it docked. Not that the android ones were 'good', but they made an attempt!

Re: Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

#425
post #210

Until recently, the availability of software updates was a limiting factor, especially for midrange phones. (Before that, phones were so slow and had so little RAM that software updates made them unusable eventually). The mid-range Samsung A52 5G now comes with 7 years of security updates and you can get it with 8GB of RAM for less than 300€. That's a pretty good deal! You just need to replace the battery every three…

How is Samsung? I had 1 bad experience with their phones, 1 bad experience with their tvs, a few bad experiences with their appliances, and a bad experience with their SSD. I just assumed they are the Apple of Android, big marketing budget, expensive, but mid-tier.

I haven't bought this phone myself but i got one for a family member. So far, no complaints.

Re: Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

#426
post #210

Until recently, the availability of software updates was a limiting factor, especially for midrange phones. (Before that, phones were so slow and had so little RAM that software updates made them unusable eventually). The mid-range Samsung A52 5G now comes with 7 years of security updates and you can get it with 8GB of RAM for less than 300€. That's a pretty good deal! You just need to replace the battery every three…

There are phones with 24gb of ram already available!

Yes, it's a start!

Re: Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about phones here, not TVs. Or are you saying this is built into phones too?

TL;DR: I'm of the opinion that the answer is probably "not yet", "it's in the works", or "it's already here, but not yet widely known". In short, I couldn't find strong conclusive evidence for "yes" or "no". The Wikipedia article on ACR [0] seems to be quoting CIO-Wiki [1] --- or vice-versa. The statement would imply "yes": > Real-time audience measurement metrics are now achievable by applying ACR technology into sm…

That's a really longwinded way of admitting that you don't know lmao.

Re: Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Samsung? I had 1 bad experience with their phones, 1 bad experience with their tvs, a few bad experiences with their appliances, and a bad experience with their SSD. I just assumed they are the Apple of Android, big marketing budget, expensive, but mid-tier.

I went from S20 to S21 to S24. Before that every Android phone I had was good but qc issues would pop up or some new phone would come out with much better features (eg camera quality is really important to me). Since I switched to Samsung have had 0 qc issues and every camera has been amazing. The only reason I upgrade is because it's free with my carrier so why not? Staying with Samsung if/until it changes.

Well, if you didn't have a $800 phone included in your contract, chances are you contract would be much cheaper. That's why not.

Re: Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is also strange to complain about multiple ports when can get a USB-C hub" First, a USB hub is bulky and frankly a damn nuisance to carry about, it needs to be integrated. Second, USB-C/OTG on many phones is implemented in a way that makes it essentially useless. For instance, USB-2 (which is on most phones) is too slow by miles; access to external devices via OTG is often set deliberately to time out after say 3…

> First, a USB hub is bulky and frankly a damn nuisance to carry about, it needs to be integrated. First, multiple USB ports are bulky, and frankly a damn nuisance to carry about. I don't need an extra port for the majority of my uses. > Second, USB-C/OTG on many phones is implemented in a way that makes it essentially useless. For instance, USB-2 (which is on most phones) is too slow by miles; access to external dev…

"What's wrong with exFAT? It's an external hard drive. Better compatibility with everything anyways."

One of the reasons why my reply is late is because of exFAT problems. Right, I don't expect you to believe that but it's true—see my comment at the end.

exFAT may have better compatibility but it's about the worst file system ever invented. Have you ever thought why Microsoft made it freely available and not NTFS? Yes, everyone believes the MS mantra that exFAT uses fewer resources than NTFS and that's true but it seems few are aware about how diabolical this file system actually is and the high potential it has for losing one's data.

Why? Well it has only one FAT table and not two, clobber that and one is stuffed big-time—and often many people lose data this way.

Why would Microsoft eliminate the second backup FAT table in exFAT when it was proven so valuable in earlier versions of FAT—especially given exFAT's higher capacity where the loss of data would be even more disastrous? (Even Blind Freddy ought to be able to see the necessity of having a second FAT to protect one's data.)

Let me give you an example: about 12 months ago I was transferring some data stored on my smartphone's 512GB microSD card to my PC when I lost about 231GB of data! That's no small loss and I've still not recovered it.

You may well ask how that happened. Simple, the SD was removed from the phone and placed in the PC's USB slot to move a small percentage of files to the PC. Unfortunately, I removed the SD before the write process had completed and it clobbered the FAT and everything was deleted, the card was not only devoid of all files but also according to Windows it was now unformatted.

OK, so it was my fault, that I accept—doubly so because I didn't follow the golden rule of copying everything first before deleting the source files (although in this case that wouldn't have saved the files that I'd not moved).

I tried the usual unearase utilities/procedures and only recovered shrapnel. Of course, what else would one expect when file systems don't store files in contiguous sectors. This is yet another antiquated idea where data integrity is traded for speed without adequate fallback/safety protections.

You probably are asking why I removed the SD from the phone instead of transferring the data by OTG. That's easily explained too, OTG on phones is inordinately slow except for the very few that use USB3—not to mention the fact that Android (especially so since v10) won't allow one to copy data from say the Android directory. (In this instance, even though I wasn't copying all the files there were enough to make removing the SD to provide a worthwhile saving in time (it had over 300k files stored on it).)

Fortunately, most of the files were already backed up so only a small incremental amount of nonessential data was lost and I've put the SD aside until I get around to mirroring it in case I ever want to recover them. Incidentally, this isn't the only time I've killed an exFAT's table but it's the only time I've lost data (other times the data was already backed up). I'm not alone I could tell stories of others who I know personally who've lost data in similar circumstances.

I've experimented with exFAT both on SD cards and SSDs and have come to the conclusion that if one wants to kill all data on such a dive quickly without secure delete so it looks like a new drive then all one has to do is to disconnect it during a write operation. It's that catastrophic.

Now comparing exFAT with NTFS is like chalk and cheese. If I'd been using NTFS then none of that would have happened. NTFS is a proper journaling file system with good inbuilt protections, it's hardy and will take much abuse before significant data is lost. Moreover, the argument that NTFS uses large resources and overhead is now mute—we're long past the days of floppy disks and pissy little processors.

If you think I'm whingeing about this without due reason then I'd suggest you ask yourself why some USB thumb drive manufacturers pre-format large capacity drives (>32GB) in FAT32 when Microsoft limits FAT32 formatting to only 32GB in Windows. Good question. I'd suggest they're well aware of the dangers of exFAT and how easy it is to lose data when using it. The answer is obviously an economic one—they want to minimize customers returning drives after losing data and or not wishing to develop a reputation for having flaky drives.

Now ask yourself why does Microsoft force users who format drives larger than 32GB to exclude using FAT32 and use either exFAT or NTFS yet still provide Windows with the facility of reading FAT32 drives with much larger capacity.

Also the question remains why Android doesn't automatically support NTFS, especially so nowadays given that the Paragon NTFS file driver is an integral part of Linux. There are multiple reasons for this some of which are known publicly, others we can only speculate about. Similarly, the reason why many manufacturers have removed SD cards from phones but that's a separate matter too big to address here except to say their excuses are so weak they're just pathetic.

One fact remains certain, none of the big manufacturers gives a damn about integrity of users' data despite all the palaver and noise over security, hackers stealing data etc. If they did then they'd be just as concerned with data entropy† no matter what its source—but they aren't. I could say much more but this post is already long enough.

BTW, my Huawei phone (which I no longer have as I'd dropped it and broke the screen) was very handy. It still used exFAT for its SD card but its OTG supported NTFS by default. Moreover, it used an excellent NTFS driver in that even on USB-2 files could be copied very quickly to an external drive. To transfer files to my PC I used to couple a 1TB NTFS-formatted SSD via OTG and it worked perfectly (also OTG provided enough power to run the SSD without effort).

It's little wonder so many were pissed off with the restrictions over Huawei as the company's products work extremely well. It's a shame other manufacturers don't follow suit.

Finally, this reply is late because my phone's SD (a 512GB Samsung SDXC Pro) could not be read after I'd done multiple file transfers from internal memory to the SD (aftwewards the SD couldn't even be seen). The problem occurred almost the same time as your post.

Fearing the worst I immediately shut the phone down and moved the SD to the PC where I found the card and its files 100% OK. I then wasted considerable time copying the files to the PC because many files exceeded the 260 file/path-length limit in Windows. Right, another ridiculous historical artifact that Microsoft and others have not yet fixed (same goes for the ongoing limitation with reserved characters, why can't we use say a '?' in filenames when clearly it's possible?).

Why so many users simply accept this unacceptably shitty and ergonomically terrible tech without complaint just beats me.

Clearly, you're one who is actually satisfied with your tech.

† Same goes for the unacceptable and irresponsible way Microsoft has implemented the SSD Trim function in Windows. If it isn't obvious I will provide an explanation.

Re: Unless my phone can be a PC, I don't want to keep paying for extra performance

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean to be dismissive, but that I can see why you would choose iOS as your main OS. Because yeah maybe other people in your family are not as tech savvy and you want to use the same ecosystem. Also apps on Android usually have sane defaults so you don't necessarily have to make microdecisions in order to read an email.

I think a great example of the android decisions is (or was) “which wallet do I use?” I had a Samsung phone, and used google chrome as it synced with my pc. Except google pay didn’t work with the Samsung phone, so I had to use Samsung wallet (and let’s not mention the fact I had a Fitbit watch which required Fitbit pay, even though they were owned by google at the time). So I ended up with three separate apps which h…

Yeah, that's Samsung for you, they put all kinds of bloat in their Android version.

That is why you need to do a little bit more research and be a little bit tech savvy for using Android in the proper way.

I would recommend brands like Google Pixel, OnePlus, Sony, Motorola. They don't put much bloat in their Android versions.

But yeah that is the thing with Android, developers have more freedom with it, so also some will use it to make things worse. With Apple you can't do anything; you're just stuck with what the manufacturer provides you and if you don't like it then you are either the CEO of Apple or it's just too bad for you.

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