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Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

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Re: Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

#421

To my experience, AIs can generate perfectly good code relatively easy things, the kind you might as well copy&paste from stackoverflow, and they'll very confidently generate subtly wrong code for anything that's non-trivial for an experienced programmer to write. How do people deal with this? I simply don't understand the value proposition. Does Google now have 25% subtly wrong code? Or do they have 25% trivial code…

> Like, isn't this announcement a terrible indictment of how inexperienced their engineers are, or how trivial the problems they solve are, or both?

Or maybe there's a KPI around lines of code or commits.

Re: Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

#422

No shit a quarter of Google's new code is created by AI. How else do you explain why Google search has been so aggressively awful for the past 5~ years? Seriously. The penchant for outright ignoring user search terms, relentlessly forcing irrelevant or just plain wrong information on users, and the obnoxious UI changes on YouTube! If I'm watching a video on full screen I have explicitly made it clear that I want YouT…

Yeah that might explain some of the loss of quality. Google apps and sites used to be solid, now they are full of not-breaking-but-annoying bugs like race conditions (don't press buttons too fast), display glitches, awful recommendations, and other usability problems.

Then again, their devices are also coming out with known fatal design flaws, like not being able to make phone calls, or the screen going black permanently.

Re: Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

#423

I read these threads and the usual 'I have to fix the AI code for longer than it would have taken to write it from scratch' and can't help but feel folks are truly trying to downplay what is going to eat the software industry alive.

I’m not convinced it’s there yet. I think it’s actively eating part of the software industry, but I wonder where that’ll stop—at least for some time—and a new shape of the industry is settled upon.

There are still things I do in my IDE that I can’t seem to get AI to do. It’s not really close yet. I don’t doubt it could get there eventually, but I suppose I don’t believe it’s about to eat those parts of the industry.

I do anticipate a massive issue from lower skill software jobs vanishing. I don’t know what entry into the industry will look like. There will be a strange gap that’s filled by AI and some people who use it to do basic things but have no idea how it does it. They will be somewhat like data entry workers, knowing how to use a spreadsheet or word processor but having no idea how the program actually works let alone the underlying operating system. I fully expect that to happen, and I can’t properly imagine what the implications will be.

Re: Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the kind you might as well copy&paste from stackoverflow This bothers me. I completely understand the conversational aspect - "what approach might work for this?", "how could we reduce the crud in this function?" - it worked a lot for me last year when I tried learning C. But the vast majority of AI use that I see is...not that. It's just glorified, very expensive search. We are willing to burn far, far more fuel t…

Another frustration I have with these models is that it is yet another crutch and excuse for turning off your brain. I was tagged on a PR a couple days ago where a coworker had added a GIN index to a column in Postgres, courtesy of GPT-4o, of course. He couldn't pronounce the name of the extension, apparently not noticing that trgm == trigram , or what that might even be. Copying the output from the LLM and pasting i…

Out of curiosity- did it work though?

Re: Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

#425
post #225

To my experience, AIs can generate perfectly good code relatively easy things, the kind you might as well copy&paste from stackoverflow, and they'll very confidently generate subtly wrong code for anything that's non-trivial for an experienced programmer to write. How do people deal with this? I simply don't understand the value proposition. Does Google now have 25% subtly wrong code? Or do they have 25% trivial code…

Most programming is trivial. Lots of non-trivial programming tasks can be broken down into pure, trivial sections. Then, the non-trivial part becomes knowing how the entire system fits together. I've been using LLMs for about a month now. It's a nice productivity gain. You do have to read generated code and understand it. Another useful strategy is pasting a buggy function and ask for revisions. I think most programm…

Trivial is fine but as you compound all the triviality the system starts to have a difficult time with putting it together. I don't expect it to nail it but then you have to unwind everything and figure out the issues so it isn't all gravy - fair bit of debug.

Re: Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

#426

To my experience, AIs can generate perfectly good code relatively easy things, the kind you might as well copy&paste from stackoverflow, and they'll very confidently generate subtly wrong code for anything that's non-trivial for an experienced programmer to write. How do people deal with this? I simply don't understand the value proposition. Does Google now have 25% subtly wrong code? Or do they have 25% trivial code…

if their sales and stock depends on saying that new shinny thing is changing the world then they have to say so, and say how it is changing their world .

It is not Netflix or Airbnb or Stripe etc making this claim, google managers have a vested interest in this.

If this metric was meaningful either of two things should have happened - google should have fired 25 % developers or built 25 % more product .

Both of this would visible in their financial reporting and has not happened.

metrics like this claim depends on how you count, that is easily gamed and can be made to show any % between 0-99 you want. Of the top of head

- I could count all AI generated code used for training as new code

- consider compiler output to assembly as AI code by adding some meaningless AI step in it

- code generated with boilerplate perhaps even generated by llm now

- mix autocomplete with llm prompts so on

The number only needs to believable , 25 is believable now, it is not true but you would believe it >50 has psychological significance and bad PR on machines replacing humans jobs , less than 10 is bad for AI sales , 25 works all the commenters in this thread is testament to that

Re: Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I can't wrap my head around is that making good, efficient software doesn't (by and large) take significantly longer than making bloated, inefficient enterprise spaghetti. The problem is finding people to do it with who care enough to think rigorously about what they're going to do before they start doing it. There's this bizarre misconception popular among bigtech managers that there's some tunable tradeoff bet…

> The problem is finding people to do it with who care enough to think rigorously > ... > train them, and reject low quality work. I agree very strongly with both of these points. But I've observed a truth about each of them over the last decade-plus of building software. 1) very few people approach the field of software engineering with anything remotely resembling rigor, and 2) there is often little incentive to tr…

> very few people approach the field of software engineering with anything remotely resembling rigor, and

I have this one opinion which I would not say at work:

In software development it's easy to feel smart because what you made "works" and you can show "effects".

- Does it wrap every failable condition in `except Exception`? Uhh, but look, it works.

- Does it define a class hierarchy for what should be a dictionary lookup? It works great tho!

- Does it create a cyclic graph of objects calling each other's methods to create more objects holding references to the objects that created them? And for what, to produce a flat dictionary of data at end of the day? But see, it works.

this is getting boring, maybe just skip past the list

- Does it stuff what should be local variables and parameters in self, creating a big stateful blob of an object where every attribute is optional and methods need to be called in the right order, otherwise you get an exception? Yes, but it works.

- Does it embed a browser engine? But it works!

The programmer, positively affirmed, continues spewing out crap, while the senior keep fighting fires to keep things running, while insulating the programmer from the taste of their own medicine.

But more generally, it's hard to expect people to learn how to solve problems simply if they're given gigantic OO languages with all the features and no apparent cost to any of them. People learn how to write classes and then never learn get good at writing code with a clear data flow.

Even very bright people can get fall for this trap because engineering isn't just about being smart but about using intelligence and experience to solve a problem while minmaxing correctly chosen properties. Those properties should generally be: dev time, complexity (state/flow), correctness, test coverage, ease of change, performance (anything else?). Anyway, "Affirming one's opinions about how things should be done" isn't one of them.

Re: Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

#428
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What a stupid future. Machines which make errors being “corrected” by machines which make errors in a death spiral. An unbelievable waste of figurative and literal energy. Humans are machines which make errors. Somehow, we got to the moon. The suggestion that errors just mindlessly compound and that there is no way around it, is what's stupid.

The difference is that when we humans learn from our errors, we learn how to make them less often. LLMs get their errors fed back into them and become more confident that their wrong code is right. I'm not saying that's completely unsolvable, but that does seem to be how it works today.

That isn't the way they work today. LLMs can easily find errors in outputs they themselves just produced.

Start adding different prompts, different models and you get all kinds of ways to catch errors. Just like humans.

Re: Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

#429

Sometimes I wonder why we would want LLMs spit out human readable code. Wouldn’t be a better future where LLMs generate highly efficient machine code and eventually we read the “source map” for debugging? Wasn’t source code just for humans?

I think they spit out human-readable code, because they've been tried on human authors.

But you make an interesting point: eventually AI will be making for other AI's + machines, and human verification can be an after thought.

Re: Google CEO says more than a quarter of the company's new code is created by AI

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What a stupid future. Machines which make errors being “corrected” by machines which make errors in a death spiral. An unbelievable waste of figurative and literal energy. Humans are machines which make errors. Somehow, we got to the moon. The suggestion that errors just mindlessly compound and that there is no way around it, is what's stupid.

To err is human. To err at scale is AI.

To err at scale isn't unique to AI. We don't say "no software, it can err at scale".
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