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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

innocenceproject.org

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#421

Post by graemep »

amiga386 wrote: post #392
MikeAmelung wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just helping everyone understand that your important clarification, was in fact, wrong. Since I wasn't on the jury, I can't say whether or not I would have been ok with the death penalty in this case, although the murder was particularly heinous.

It doesn't matter how heinous the murder was if you have the wrong suspect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DrsVhzbLzU > Priti Patel: this is about having deterrents... > Ian Hislop: It's not a deterrent killing the wrong people!

its not a deterrent for multiple other reasons too:

1. most murderers do not expect to get caught if they are acting at all rationally, and do not care if they do not, and, 2. unless you execute a high proportion of people committing a particular crime any one criminal knows they are unlikely to be executed.

I think the Tutu quote at the end of the video.

Most of the rest of the work world has abolished capital punishment, and most of the rest uses it very sparingly. The big exceptions are China and the Middle East. Good company to keep?

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#422

Post by awb »

Beijinger wrote: post #235
anonzzzies wrote: post #57

Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment. But I get nonsense begets more nonsense.

"Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment." You shall not kill! What I don't understand. It is my impression that most of the US states that still have the death penalty, strongly oppose abortion. I find this a contradiction. And also these are the states that oppose abortion, at the same time are strictly against any kind of welfa…

Here’s my guess:

I think it’s a question of agency. If you’re an adult that makes their own choices (crime, bad financial decisions, etc.), then you know what the consequences are.

If you’re an unborn child, you’re don’t have agency.

For some there’s probably deeper religious belief in good things (birth) being the work of God and bad things (crime, vice, death) being the work of Satan.

To your point there are plenty of competing religious teachings that could lead some to be pro-choice, pro-welfare and anti-death penalty.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#423

Post by anon291 »

brewdad wrote: post #334
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they knew the items were in the car because they searched his car and found the items. He has not, as far as I know, offered any alternative explanation of how he came into possession of a murder victim's random personal items.

Nor is he required to give an explanation. The prosecutor must prove that possession of the items leads to proof of guilt.

He is not required, but absent an explanation, a jury might think him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. After all, if your husband comes home late at night with lipstick all over him in a drunken stupor and unzipped pants, and then, as you threaten divorce and kick him out of the house, he offers no explanation, you too might think him guilty. Whereas, if he claims to have been assaulted by a very large woman you might listen to him. The 5th amendment protects you from being called as a witness against yourself. That doesn't mean you should not offer the jury testimony in defense of yourself.

In general, if you have an alternative explanation for the circumstances which have led to your suspicion, you should offer them up readily.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#424

Post by anon291 »

diogenes_atx wrote: post #104
knodi123 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. He pawned the victim's possessions. He was seen disposing of bloody clothes. He already had 15 felony convictions in addition to offenses related to Ms. Gayle's murder: robbery (2), armed criminal action (2), assault (2), burglary (4), stealing (3), stealing a motor vehicle, and unlawful use of a weapon. Now, as to whether this evidence is so…

As stated in the article written by the legal scholars at the Innocence Project: > "There is no reliable evidence proving that Marcellus Williams committed the crime for which he is scheduled to be executed on Sept. 24. The State destroyed or corrupted the evidence that could conclusively prove his innocence and the available DNA and other forensic crime-scene evidence does not match him." DNA evidence is based on pr…

DNA evidence is notoriously faulty. Let's not pretend it's 100% accurate. If I understand correctly, the innocence project has -- in the past -- used the fact that it's not accurate as a way to cast doubt on convictions.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#425

Post by noworriesnate »

ossyrial wrote: post #374
edanm wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should require incontrovertible proof. There's really no such thing. Instead, there is a very high burden of proof, there's a lot of protections built into the process, and, most important, it's an adversarial process in which one side is standing up for the defendant. If the evidence isn't good enough, the defendant's lawyer can and must show that to the jury, with them making the final decision on who is right…

> There's really no such thing. Which, in my opinion, is a fantastic argument against the death penalty. "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf

I once met a man who told me he had killed his neighbor once. Here's the story:

His neighbor was a kleptomaniac. He constantly broke in and stole stuff from the man I was talking to.

The man I was talking to constantly reported it to the police, who said they could do nothing unless the man broke in.

The man I was talking to eventually caught the thief breaking in, at which point he held him at gunpoint until the police came and arrested the thief.

The man served his time in prison, eventually got out and went right back to his thieving ways.

The man I was talking to waited until the guy broke in, then shot him to death.

Problem solved, but what a stupid and roundabout way of solving it.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#426

Post by anon291 »

Reading the governor's letter it seems clear:

1. The witness who claimed Williams confessed provided non-publicly-available, but known-to-police, details about the case. This is very strong evidence that the confession was made to them.

2. The girlfriend's hesitation to go to police (she never asked for the reward money) is due to the fact that Williams threatened her family, which is a real threat considering his history of violence

3. The prosecution had several other witnesses that were not called to the stand to whom Williams told about the murder

4. Williams not only had Gayle's laptop, but had her husband's laptop and had sold it to someone. The police found the laptop and the owner identifier Williams as the seller.

5. Williams not only had her laptop but a bunch of household items. Tell me, when have you had several items from a murder victim in your car? Williams offers no explanation for where these came from.

Look... criminals are not the type to take responsibility for their actions. Williams criminal history and jailhouse violence indicate that this is not a man who learns from past mistakes, or who even think he needed reform of any kind.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#427

Post by hdlothia »

komali2 wrote: post #342
xyzzyz wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, a prosecutor at no point argued that this guy was not guilty. Nobody argued that, except dishonest activists who lied to you. All prosecutor offered was commuting the death penalty to life without parole. In addition, I don’t see how a random prosecutor’s opinion is relevant. If this was the original prosecutor who prosecuted the case, then it would have some evidentiary value. In this case, this is just some guy…

The exact words of the person you're replying to were > The prosecutor's office and the victim's family both pushed to stop the execution due to reasonable doubt. Nobody claimed the prosecutor argued he's not guilty. > Why should we care what he believes, over opinion of hundreds of prosecutors in this country who are happy that the justice has finally been served? Because he's correct. The State doesn't have enough…

The victim's family do not believe in the death penalty, I have not seen anywhere that they doubt his guilt.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#428

Post by hdlothia »

monero-xmr wrote: post #5

The prosecutor who wanted to pardon him was not the original prosecutor, but a recent progressive elected one. The original prosecutor still believes he is guilty. Furthermore it is highly suspect that he was caught selling the laptop stolen from her house and the story about how he came into it is implausible. People who are willing to commit murder are often sociopaths and pathological liars. It isn’t surprising he…

Bell and the victim's family wanted a commuted sentence, not a pardon. They did not believe in his innocence.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#429

Post by hdlothia »

blcknight wrote: post #20
nemo44x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was all considered by the state Supreme Court. Due process was invoked and after numerous reviews at every level no court found anything to retry or reverse the case. My personal take - of course he was guilty as unrelated people recounted confessions he made to them that included details that were never made public. And the property findings. Saying that I’m not sure killing people is the greatest thing.

> unrelated people recounted confessions he made to them that included details that were never made public Do you have a source? "The case against Mr. Williams turned on the testimony of two unreliable witnesses who were incentivized by promises of leniency in their own pending criminal cases and reward money. The investigation had gone cold until a jail inmate named Henry Cole, a man with a lengthy record, claimed t…

This is a lawyer's evasive way of hiding that these individuals revealed info that was not known to the public but was confirmed to be accurate by the police

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#430

Post by _DeadFred_ »

EForEndeavour wrote: post #393
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of rights (like your right to remain silent, your right to a speedy trial, your right to bear arms, your right to vote, your rights to be free from search without reason) have been interpreted only apply up to the point of conviction. So yes, things get MUCH tougher once convicted as many rights no longer apply to you or are stripped from you. In this case, up until conviction you are presumed innocent and guil…

So falsify and/or misrepresent evidence just long enough to fool a jury. If the ruse is discovered one minute after conviction, who cares? Person's convicted now, doesn't matter? With the caveat that this is coming from someone with zero training in law: what a load of horseshit.

No, people have 14 days not one minute (previously forever but reduced to 14 days to find a happy balance to ease the load on the judicial system) after conviction in the Feds to file what most Americans' think of when they think of an appeal. After 14 days (previously forever) the appeal process is greatly limited.
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