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Every company should be owned by its employees

elysian.press

421–430 of 1001 posts

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#421
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are there so many more startups in the US compared to Europe? While not a perfect measurement, there is more innovation and economic generation that happens in the US compared to Europe. Time will prove which culture of business wins.

1. A larger, wealthier, cohesive consumer market sharing language, and culture. 2. A business-first, citizens-second approach to society. 3. Wealthier, and less risk-averse investors (ties back to point 2.). Simply put, very different societies (even more considering Europe is not at all a homogeneous block), with different priorities, both extremely wealthy by global standards. The question is more: which model is m…

>2. A business-first, citizens-second approach to society.

This is meaningless. Businesses are activities undertaken by people. Everything resolves back to the people -- the same aggregation of the same individual people in all cases. Reifying the abstraction of "business" to treat it like some separate entity that's at odds with the very people who are engaging in the actual activity that term describes is a monumental confusion of ideas.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#422

The company I work for sucks. I rather take more cash and just by stocks in companies I believe in more.

Why not work for a company that sucks less?

That ignores the costs (time spent) of finding another company and assumes one has information to conclude that it does indeed suck less without actually having the experience of working there to know.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop optimizing for financial leeches sucking value out of the system and externalizing all the societal consequences, start optimizing for the vast majority of the population. ....sounds better when you elaborate on the categories you selected.

The vast majority of the population are consumers. Each of us consumes far more services than we produce. Making life better for consumers is making life better for everyone.

Given that wealth is continually being concentrated towards the very rich I don't think this is accurate. As a whole the working class is producing more value than they are consuming, but the excess is going to the rich not those producing the value

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#424
My grandfather founded a construction company by himself many decades ago. He built it up over many years to a behemoth in the region and created a culture where people worked there for life. When he retired, he sold the entire company to the employees with everyone getting a cut.

His funeral was full of so many faces I had never seen before. Somebody pointed out to me that these were the dozens of people that he made millionaires by deliberately deciding to do right by the employees. It was really moving to talk with so many people who had reaped the benefits of their labor and were grateful for his decision.

That to me is the model that I want to work for. Yes, people at the top made more than at the bottom. But they had been there for decades longer, and the gap was not as extreme at every other company I’ve worked for. Wealth was collectively shared.

My family could have been a lot wealthier if he had kept a cut of the company. But he retired comfortably and didn’t feel that he deserved any more money that others earned for him. I really admire that decision.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#425
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I looked at data, worker coops were less likely to fail than most other corporate structures.

[flagged]

> just like how communism

There is some kind of derangement in the English speaking West, any attempt to reign in power of capital must be communist.

If free public libraries didn't exist and were proposed today, they'd be accused of communism. If free public legal deference did not exist today, anyone proposing it would be accused of being a communist. Also notice that using public money to hurt a person, i.e. prosecution, is never accused of an ideology.

These sort of comparisons are deeply unhelpful and only betray illiteracy of the accuser.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of a company is to make a product that customers want, and make it as accessible as possible. “Taking over the market” and producing profit is only a byproduct of doing that. A competitor would wipe out that profit if there existed a cheaper option that delivered the same value to customers. The minute you start optimizing for employees instead of customers, you’re delivering less value to customers (the wo…

I think this is a bit of a misnomer: what's being said is not to "start optimizing for employees instead of customers", but rather to keep customers where they are in the pecking order, and to re-align the owners in this dynamic. Customers are paramount, owners are less important, workers are what make the business move. I think workers should have a seat on every board; workers should have a right to first refusal -…

> Customers are paramount, owners are less important, workers are what make the business move.

No, no one is more important or less important than anyone else. Every role has to be played order for anyone to benefit. Someone has to bear the risk and pay the upfront costs; someone has to do the operational work in order to deliver value to the market and someone has to be willing to pay for the resulting product in order to generate net positive value for all participants. If any one of these items is missing, the entire initiative fails.

So the participants negotiate arrangements that mutually incentivize each other to pay their parts satisfactorily. Whether those arrangements meet the speculative standards of uninvolved strangers' dogmatic ideologies is not and should not be relevant.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#427
post #390
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the measure of how well you are making a great product, creating something that would otherwise not exist, or improve some other product or process is how much your customers are willing to pay you for what you are doing. If you are creating value for other people, you are making money -- money is a measuring unit that quantifies transferable value.

No, because that falls under the fallacy that every market is a perfect market, where none is. A perfect market is one where - alternatives can be created for little to no money so they can easily exist - consumers have an infinity of time, money and energy to analyze products - consumers have total agency over their decision - picking an alternative has no cost, no drawback - it is possible to buy nothing and still…

>No, because that falls under the fallacy that every market is a perfect market, where none is.

No, it doesn't. We live in a stochastic world, not a deterministic one, and nothing perfectly fits any speculative model. There are always outliers and edge cases, and that's fine -- the world doesn't need to perfectly adhere to any model in order for the model to be more accurate than not in the general case.

And the proposition that business profits are largely aligned with consumer interests in the general case, even despite outliers to the contrary, is very obviously true.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#428
This reminds me of that old funny viral video:

"democracy is government... by the people...of the people...for the people... but the people are retar*d"

Like everything, the best things probably require balance, and the devil is in the details. IMHO it has merit, but with caveats.

I would not want to have the same shares as a normal worker if I have personal risks (like a work security responsible, or CEO). For better or worse, CEOs have experience in guiding companies, and almost no employees have that.

OTOH even a small worker representation might do wonders, increase engagement, better law compliance and the like.

the options are not just 0% and 100% to workers, there could be different requirements depending on the size of the company.

Small companies could be required to have a bigger worker representation, because the impacts of the single worker is much higher.

The weight of the workers' shares in money could be different than its weight in the decisions of the company, too.

Maybe the workers just get a vote for X% on the board, regardless of actual shares.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It sounds good to me.

Just an example. Should teachers be judged on how a pleasant life they live, or how good they teach?

That's not as relevant as you'd think - the "customers" of teachers are, arguably, taxpayers and not children. Alternatively it's parents, or perhaps politicians who set the budget.

Focusing on children is the more pro-social preference, but children who attend schools famously don't have jobs in functioning societies.

More importantly, the teaching system is basically un-incentivized by incentives - teachers in the US (focusing just on the US for a sec) are incredibly underpaid, and basically rely on masters-degree teachers putting in effort completely disproportionate to the pay. Everyone accepts this state of affairs specifically because we're all ignoring market incentives in favor of the good of society (i.e. the quality of childrens' education).

So, let's suppose we judge teachers based on how well they appease politicians and parents who support their funding: they pass all students, regardless of how poorly they do on tests and how badly the children need to just repeat the year. This is a terrible outcome, and yet you're implicitly endorsing it.

Re: Every company should be owned by its employees

#430
post #421
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. A larger, wealthier, cohesive consumer market sharing language, and culture. 2. A business-first, citizens-second approach to society. 3. Wealthier, and less risk-averse investors (ties back to point 2.). Simply put, very different societies (even more considering Europe is not at all a homogeneous block), with different priorities, both extremely wealthy by global standards. The question is more: which model is m…

>2. A business-first, citizens-second approach to society. This is meaningless. Businesses are activities undertaken by people. Everything resolves back to the people -- the same aggregation of the same individual people in all cases. Reifying the abstraction of "business" to treat it like some separate entity that's at odds with the very people who are engaging in the actual activity that term describes is a monumen…

No, it's not meaningless.

Businesses are activities undertaken by people but they are also legal entities which have no need to abide by ethical or moral standards, shielding the underlying people from liabilities incurred by such entity. People can't do that.

Citizens need to abide to cultural norms, societal expectations, etc.

Of course everything resolves back to people, in a reductive sense, but those entities (citizens, and businesses) don't have the same standards: morally, ethically, nor legally. Neither do they share the same needs, businesses can by eventuality support the needs of citizens to sell stuff but their only motive is profit-motive, not what's best for citizens.

Business-first is a prerogative of how the USA approaches regulations, it's left first to businesses to regulate themselves until issues mount up to the point where regulations are needed, at that point the businesses have had time to amass power and fight against those. Even in the cases where regulation would be beneficial to society, even in cases where the current regulations which are business-friendly are damaging to society (US's healthcare is a clear example).

It's only meaningless if you don't want to see what it means, citizens needs are considered below the needs of businesses as entities, it's a cultural trait of the USA to let businesses roam more-or-less freely (again, with the exception of some industries) until they cause enough damage to generate popular calls for them to be restrained, at that point is not clear if the government will be able to reign in them. Businesses in the USA have much more power than the people, they make policies, they donate enormous amounts to political campaigns, etc. Citizens can't play in the same field.

There are many cases from the past decades: the global financial meltdown of 2008, the dysfunctional healthcare system, the opioid crisis fueled by a single pharma company, the nosedive of Boeing, etc.

You can attack my point in many ways but not by saying "it's meaningless", businesses interests are, in many cases, not citizens' interests. A very clear example: if a business could they would not hire any Americans, simply because the workforce is expensive, shipping this labour outside of American borders would be great for any business' bottomline, it would not help at all society as a whole. They would do that even if it meant killing their own businesses, since there wouldn't be consumers to buy their products, it wouldn't matter until the issue was extreme enough to require them to actually create a consumer market by employing people in the country.

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