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Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

nytimes.com

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Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#421

Post by kubectl_h »

beAbU wrote: post #272
jrmg wrote: post #46

Artillery crew members who fired thousands of rounds in combat came home plagued by hallucinations and psychosis Could this problem also be affecting civilian gun enthusiasts? Or is the order of magnitude of the exposure just wildly lower compared to the military, even in the most enthusiastic?

I've been surrounded by guns most of my life, going out to the shooting range at least once a month, sometimes more. Range days are busy, with sometimes dozens of people shooting on the line at the same time. The range is open air. I have some hearing damage (which I actually think is from somewhere else - we've always been anal about protection). Other than that, no other issues to report with myself nor my family/f…

> Small calibre gunfire does not have a big enough shock/impact to really affect bystanders.

Unfortunately at my public range it seems like there is always one guy with a muzzle brake and he ends up setting up beside me.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#422

Post by bigstrat2003 »

juliushuijnk wrote: post #226
exe34 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i thought the "gender pay gap" was due to different jobs and amount of time worked - otherwise companies would hire only women and have to pay out way less in wages.

This assumes companies are rational actors.

If we assume:

* Women can be hired for a discount relative to hiring men

* Women are just as good at those jobs as men are, i.e. the lower wages are not due to worse job performance

Then it follows that some company or other would be going out of its way to hire women in preference to men. Yes, not everyone is a rational actor - but even if many companies are run by raging misogynists, not all are. And the companies who are willing to get a cheaper (but just as effective) workforce will have a significant advantage, and over time outcompete the other firms.

The fact that this hasn't happened is very strong evidence that one of those two premises is false.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#423

Post by mc32 »

tsimionescu wrote: post #408
mc32 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean misandry. Perhaps it is. Men bear the burden of conflict. Women bear the aftermath. But that’s how things shake out due to biology. Same as we frown upon sending children to war. Yes, they are easier to indoctrinate and can pull a trigger just as well as adults (see today’s conflict ridden areas of Africa). Yet, we know better than to send “future us-es” into the grinder guaranteeing societal collaps…

No, I do mean misogyny. Women are just as capable and willing as men to fight and defend. With modern weapons especially, there is no real difference between the fighting capacity of a woman and that of a man. And women are people in their own right, not things to be protected to perpetuate society. Also, women are not children. Children deserve protection because they don't know any better, their minds are not fully…

If going to war front as an infantryman were a privilege, we'd see the likes of Hollywood actors and actresses volunteer for the front as well as any wealthy folks and any other privileged folks --but they rarely do --this indicates it is not a privilege, but rather something the poor and of lesser means, those whose lives are worth less are sent to the front. It's violence, it's abuse. Sometimes someone has to endure it. I don't see how not sending one is either misogyny or misandry. Sending someone however, is both of the above; however, if we must, then I think it's the duty of men to do the fighting. Women, can of course be in support of the front lines.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#424

Post by psychlops »

logicchains wrote: post #207
vitus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh. Historically, the rationale for excluding women from the draft was that they weren't eligible to serve in combat roles, voluntarily or otherwise. (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostker_v._Goldberg ) That policy changed by 2016, so the rationale no longer holds. With that said, we also haven't had mandatory conscription since the Vietnam War, and I think it's unlikely that we would any time in the near future…

>Historically, the rationale for excluding women from the draft was that they weren't eligible to serve in combat roles, voluntarily or otherwise Historically countries didn't let women fight in wars because they didn't want their civilisation to die out. If a country loses a double-digit percent of its men it can still repopulate just as quickly, because one man can make multiple women pregnant, while if it loses it…

> Historically countries didn't let women fight in wars because they didn't want their civilisation to die out.

Really? Might is also have something to do with women having trouble moving 80-100 lbs of gear like in WW2? It was 50 lbs in the Civil War. Do you think the leaders at the time had the foresight to keep women out of the war for future breeding purposes?

That's thinking 15-20 years into the future while they are fighting wars now.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#425

Post by pc86 »

runjake wrote: post #415
harimau777 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW The standard rifles used by the US Military (M16 and it's variants/decedents) are fairly low power, low recoil, and quiet as rifles go. Of course I'm not doctor so maybe they are still enough to cause damage and like another poster pointed out, there are other weapons that soldiers use which are much more powerful.

The M16 platform has small projectiles, but there’s a lot of powder behind them. They are pretty loud, more so if you’re to the left or, especially, right where the ejection port sits. My guess for SEALs is the breaching charges play a big role. Carl Gustafs are notorious as well, but I don't know whether SEALs use them. US Army Special Forces do. Edit: Yeah, I should clarify to say the M16 is more likely to cause he…

As far as rifles go 5.56 is about as anemic of a round as you can get and have it still be fit for purpose in a military or defense context. You can't even hunt most things with it because it's not powerful enough. They only way these rifles are causing brain damage is if you're on the wrong end of one.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#426

Post by tsimionescu »

mc32 wrote: post #423
tsimionescu wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I do mean misogyny. Women are just as capable and willing as men to fight and defend. With modern weapons especially, there is no real difference between the fighting capacity of a woman and that of a man. And women are people in their own right, not things to be protected to perpetuate society. Also, women are not children. Children deserve protection because they don't know any better, their minds are not fully…

If going to war front as an infantryman were a privilege, we'd see the likes of Hollywood actors and actresses volunteer for the front as well as any wealthy folks and any other privileged folks --but they rarely do --this indicates it is not a privilege, but rather something the poor and of lesser means, those whose lives are worth less are sent to the front. It's violence, it's abuse. Sometimes someone has to endur…

Of course it's not a privilege. But if you're saying women aren't good at it, that women need to be protected, that's misogyny. It's like saying women can't receive the death penalty because they are not mentally sound to be held responsible for their actions, which was a real misogynistic argument at one point.

Misandry would be saying men must be sent to war instead of women because they are inferior, or because they deserve a worse life, or something like that.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#427

Post by erva »

Qualifier: Former US special operations operator that served in multiple wars.

My anecdotal take is there are many ways that shock and trauma can accumulate through training and war that are far beyond the minimal effects of an M4.

Firearms: While the primary weapons systems are the M4 and side arm (pistol), there are many weapons systems utilized by special operations such as sniper rifles, crew serve weapons, and niche small arms.

The M82 sniper rifle shoots a 50 BMG round. In either the bolt action or semi-auto versions they feel like you are getting punched in the face when you shoot them.

Crew serve weapons like the MK19 and M2 do pack a punch. The MK19 is a machine gun that shoots 40mm grenades. The M2 is a .50 cal machine gun. These weapons systems are mounted, but the percussion of them is still far greater than an M4.

More niche arms like the M249 SAW, M16 HBAR, full-auto AKs, M240 Golf, MP9, etc are not as mild as the standard M4/M16.

Blasts: There are many types of blasts encountered such as Mortars (inbound and outbound), Flash Bangs, Entry charges, IEDs, Landmines, etc. These do make your head ring if you are close enough to them.

In my own personal experience there are many other daily jarring events that aren't nearly as sexy to talk about. Riding in the back of a 5 ton will almost shake your brain out of your head. Riding in an LCAC (hovercraft) is like riding in a 5 ton. Doing boat work in Zodiacs will bounce you all over the place, especially when doing surf passages. Doing hydrographic surveys right where the surf breaks will pound you for hours and make you a little sick afterwards. When your chute opens on a jump, if jumping round chutes, will make you see stars...the landing is not a soft pretty one like rectangle chutes...you hit the ground hard.

There are many more ways your body gets pounded on a daily basis far in excess of the weapons you use.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#428

Post by bigstrat2003 »

immibis wrote: post #288
exe34 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i thought the "gender pay gap" was due to different jobs and amount of time worked - otherwise companies would hire only women and have to pay out way less in wages.

It could be, but is that really an excuse? I mean, one couldn't really justify the pay gap in slavery by saying the slaves were working different jobs to the free people, either.

Yes, of course it is. If people choose different careers, it is perfectly reasonable that their pay will be different. Paying a woman less for the same job is wrong, but there's no problem if women in aggregate are making career choices that mean they have lower average income as a group.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#429

Post by pc86 »

yokoprime wrote: post #398
red-iron-pine wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Carl Gustaf The CG is LOUD. Wicked backblast on that, too. Generally, you're limited to firing 6 rounds or less per day during training due to blast & shockwave effects. The guys we trained with didn't have that much ammo on hand, anyway, but interesting to know.

It's loud when you are the loader/spotter or are standing close by. It's not loud at all if you are the one firing it (with your head practically on the tube). That is my experience anyway.

I believe you but I wonder how that works

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#430

Post by fwip »

Maken wrote: post #393
sofixa wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically countries didn't let women fight in wars because they didn't want their civilisation to die out. If a country loses a double-digit percent of its men it can still repopulate just as quickly, because one man can make multiple women pregnant, while if it loses its women then it takes significantly longer to repopulate, because one woman can't have multiple babies at the same time so the birthrate will ne…

You probably should look at single mothers' statistics. Edit: To provide more context: It was not exactly "official policy", but single mothers became much more common in Britain after WWI due to the fathers either dying in the war or, well, being already in another marriage. To the point the women started organizing and campaigning for their rights https://www.gingerbread.org.uk/about-us/gingerbread-history/

Naively, it seems like there'd be a lot more of the "dead fathers" case than the "out of wedlock because women want to have kids but there aren't enough husbands to go around" case.
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