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Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

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Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s utterly mundane, completely common knowledge for those who have been around long enough to have watched both the start and end on Loopt that Altman is a dark-triad sociopath with one marketable skill: (in pg’s words) “becoming powerful”. Guy can’t code, can’t design, can’t publish, can’t climb a traditional corporate ladder with even modest guardrails against fraud, can’t keep his hand out of the cookie jar. Can…

I think it might be time to turn back the clock a bit and revisit some of the things pg said way back when he was pitching Sam Altman to lead YC and the general reaction was "...who?" 2008: "You could parachute [Sam Altman] into an island full of cannibals and come back in 5 years and he'd be the king. If you're Sam Altman, you don't have to be profitable to convey to investors that you'll succeed with or without the…

> Zuckerberg

He started off looking like a Lore from Star Trek, and then took the criticism seriously enough to learn to present as a genuine human.

Might have been around the time FB was getting named by the UN as bearing some responsibility for a genocide though.

So if anything, for him at least, the opposite.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always think I've found the limit of people's ability to blame communism for every problem on earth, and I'm always surprised. Was the current genocide in Palestine the fault of Communism also? Was 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq, communism?

That's a strawman caricature of the argument. States that are driven by free market allocation rather than central planning (because there's no _pure_ model of either/or) are much less likely to initiate major wars of conquest, such as the ongoing Ukraine war or a hypothetical invasion of Taiwan. That's just empirical fact at this point. There are counterexamples, but the propensity goes strongly in one direction. Al…

> - but you can certainly signal that you've pre-judged the situation

I'm happy to listen to arguments that occupied Palestine was, at the same time as it was being occupied, also genociding the Israelis, however the case for Israelis genociding the Palestinians today is well argued: https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2023/10/Is... . This is separate from justification attempts. I believe there is no justification for genocide, others may disagree, however it would be very strange for someone to argue that Israel is not attempting to destroy, in whole or in part, Palestinians. That being the definition of genocide. I have looked at these arguments, listened to opposition to these arguments, and determined that Israel is indeed committing a genocide. I'm not sure how that's different from other things I've determined or why it specifically should be considered "pre-judging."

> States that are driven by free market allocation rather than central planning (because there's no _pure_ model of either/or) are much less likely to initiate major wars of conquest,

This doesn't make sense to me considering one of the largest drivers for global war and conflict has been the "free market" USA. When should we consider America having been a "free market" state? Is the 1800s too early? Do we count all the wars against native americans as one war of conquest, or each individual one as its own war? First Seminole, Black Hawk, Winnebago, etc. Then there's Mexican-American, the Opium wars (also participated in by Free Market Great Britain and France), the war against the Mormons, etc. Maybe America wasn't free market until the 20th century? Well, in that case, the Indian wars were still ongoing as late as the 1910s, there was the USA occupation of Veracruz, Haiti, Dominican Republic. There was American involvement in the Korean and Vietnam war though I can accept that those weren't necessarily "wars of conquest," though the USA framed it as a war of Free Market Capitalism vs Communism, in which case, the goal was to conquest communism. The USA also attempted to invade Cuba, did invade Grenada, bombed Libya, invaded Panama, then there's the Gulf war... which brings us to the 21st century. We have the 20 year war in Afghanistan, which was begun on a false premise of finding weapons of mass destruction, similar to the Iraq War, same time period.

Let's now go down the list of conquests and invasions by non-free market states.

Obviously, Nazi Germany, not having a free market, tops the list. Luckily it was defeated relatively quickly from a historical standpoint, so, very small time period to analyse, though I think you and I both agree that they wouldn't have stopped until total world domination.

We can look at the Soviets, and again, smaller time period, so we can be fair and compare their 20th century behavior to the Americans in the 20th century. They invaded Afghanistan (poor country can't catch a break from the commies or the capitalists!), was at least as involved in the Korean and the Vietnam war as the USA was, pressured the Polish border, the Finish border, and the Japanese border, which I would agree is a war of aggression. Invasion of Czechoslovakia, definitely a war of aggression. Further wars escape me - the Soviets never invaded Cuba nor American territory, so I think that's +1 war for America (ostensibly the Soviets were merely providing the means for Cubans to defend themselves from an apparently aggressive neighboring nation!). Am I missing any Soviet wars? Then the collapse into Russia, which, if we count them as the same country, I'm not sure - the notable difference between Russia and the Soviet Union was that Russia was seeking a more free market, globalist economy. Yes, it's certainly not as free market as the USA, but neither country are true free market economies, right? In any case, certainly late 20th century Russia had aggressive actions such as in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Chechnya (ostensibly started by their own struggle for independence but Russia's refusal to acknowledge that could perhaps be compared to Native American struggles to maintain independence). Invasion of Georgia, and of course invasion of Ukraine. You really think Russia is a centrally planned economy? I don't think corruption counts as central planning.

Then, the PRC, free market or no? In the beginning absolutely not, and this coincided with their most aggressive period, but as they split into a more free market economy, their wars of aggression cooled, unlike America's. Cold War meddling like the USA and Soviets, and then attacks on Taiwan (sort of a continuation of their own civil war, but not necessary and therefore imo aggression). Border disputes with India, invasion of Cambodia / Vietnam, invasion of Tibet, genocide against Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang, and that's about it. Imperialist threats against Taiwan on a weekly basis into the 21st century, economic imperialist activity in Africa, global cultural imperialist and han supremacist activity, not much more than that.

By my eye, I'm not seeing evidence that a State economy being free market or centrally planned has any bearing on its aggression. We have centrally planned countries that tried to take over the whole world (nazi germany), aggressively tried to spread communism (soviet union, PRC), and push on borders (soviet union, PRC), and we have market economies that wiped out indigenous people, aggressively spread capitalism / resisted spread of communism, invaded countries outright, overthrew local governments, and so on.

> That's just empirical fact at this point. There are counterexamples, but the propensity goes strongly in one direction.

What are you looking at that I'm not?

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#423
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always think I've found the limit of people's ability to blame communism for every problem on earth, and I'm always surprised. Was the current genocide in Palestine the fault of Communism also? Was 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq, communism?

For anybody to take your comment seriously, you'd first have to actually explain how you get to your assumptions. Because most serious people reject your assumption that there's a genocide going on in Palestine right now.

One can be reasonably serious as a person without being fully informed of the situation on the ground in the occupied territories (either in the current moment, or in the context of Israel's continuous efforts to dislodge and dehumanize the Palestinians since 1948). Or without being aware of the modern definition of the term "genocide" (per the very first line in the Wikipedia page, and its usage by the ICJ and countless legal and human rights organizations) to include the intentional destruction of target populations "in whole or in part".

Once one understands enough basic regional history to connect the dots, and is aware of the modern definition -- it's perfectly bloody obvious what's happening.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, my statement was a hypothetical that shows its fairly obvious in the abstract that just because a group's activity is beneficial to themselves doesn't mean humanity needs to tolerate it, if it's at the expense of everyone else. Hello cartels, carbon emissions, etc. When it comes to this specific case, the board did not think the mission of "AGI benefiting humanity" warranted shutting the company down. (they be…

Welcome to living in a society. If OpenAI didn't offer high compensation, then it wouldn't have been able to attract the talent that it did. Feel free to run your company off of Doge coin donations from EA orgs if you like. But personally, I don't think anyone would have been able to make the frontier models that OpenAI did even if SBF himself funded the whole thing. To actually succeed in the space you need money, t…

OpenAI's stated goal wasn't just to develop AGI by any means necessary, so why are you using that as a criteria?

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#426
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the time it does feel like the only rights that actually matter in a capitalist society are property rights of capital owners. The rest is more like "eh I suppose we could also do that if we're not too busy". You're correct that for a large and prosperous society you need some large organizations , but it is not at all obvious that the best way to run them is by sociopathic megalomaniacs.

It seems those "megalomaniacs" are needed to at least build those large organizations. And I'd rather have them run by their founders with vested interests than bureaucrats, committees and politicians.

I'd rather not, given that their interests more often than not seem to be at the expense of my interests.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#427

Kind of ironic that people are jumping in here to defend Sam Altman on the message board of Y Combinator, which also fired him from an executive leadership role for similar reasons.

It’s utterly mundane, completely common knowledge for those who have been around long enough to have watched both the start and end on Loopt that Altman is a dark-triad sociopath with one marketable skill: (in pg’s words) “becoming powerful”. Guy can’t code, can’t design, can’t publish, can’t climb a traditional corporate ladder with even modest guardrails against fraud, can’t keep his hand out of the cookie jar. Can…

> I’ve been short this nonsense for a decade

I'm curious: are you short all of SPX or just tech companies?

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#428

Kind of ironic that people are jumping in here to defend Sam Altman on the message board of Y Combinator, which also fired him from an executive leadership role for similar reasons.

You wrote "fired". I tried to Google for a concrete, high quality source, but I cannot find anything. The best I could find: > Altman was allegedly fired from his role as the President of YCombinator for putting his own interests first. Note the term "allegedly". Is there a YC press release or an insider's account of his termination? Else, this is just a rumor. To be clear: I don't write this post as a shill for Altm…

due to the vagaries of the English language that allegedly can be modifying the reason for the firing and not the firing itself.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#429
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> amoral wealth-hoarders They're not hoarding wealth. They don't have any Scrooge McDuck cash faults. Their money is all invested , i.e. put to work creating things that people want. > moralists ... capitalists History shows us that societies based on morals (religious, ideological) fare extremely poorly compared with societies based on rights (free markets). Like it or not, for a large, prosperous society you must h…

That's all very generous. Who actually needs greater than 90% of the startups coming out of Silicon Valley and the surrounding areas? Their products just get hyped up and shoved down peoples' throat. And you're wrong. These people do have cash vaults, but they're other peoples' cash vaults. How else do you think they buy things? And they're living in their multi-million dollar mansions and yachts out of benevolence?…

Unfortunately, history provides us with examples of societies that confiscated the wealth of the wealthy, and even exterminated them, in their quest to make a utopia.

They all ended up as hell-holes.

I'm not really interested in repeating that history.

It is not at all necessary for wealthy people to be benevolent in order to contribute to society. Nor do they need to be nice people, nor do they need to be unselfish.

The free market harnesses selfishness for the benefit of society. It's why it works so well, as excoriating selfish people.

For example, the Wright Brothers invented the airplane so they could get rich off of licensing the patents. Dig into it, and that's the bald, unvarnished, truth. They did get modestly wealthy, but were poor businessmen. Look at what their selfishness did - glorious airplane travel! Have you ever flown on an airplane? You're benefiting from the selfishness of the Wrights.

BTW, everybody is selfish. I am selfish. You are selfish. Everyone who says they are unselfish are selfish. That's what a billion years of evolution did to us.

Re: Ex-OpenAI board member reveals what led to Sam Altman's brief ousting

#430
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Before you throw around accusations of incompetence, you should probably have some shred of evidence. The evidence is in this interview. It sounded like the board basically let Altman walk all over them until they suddenly decided that they wanted to fire him, but by then it was too late. For example, if they had a thorough paper trail documenting all of his lies, they could threaten a lawsuit pressuring him to res…

> they could threaten a lawsuit pressuring him to resign This is extremely confused about the board's responsiblities and powers. A court would laugh this case out of court because the board _can just fire him_.

This has nothing to do with the board's power. Simply firing him doesn't stop him from taking all his employees with him. The lawsuit would be for the damage of Altman's lies, and would prevent him from simply starting another AI company.
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