An electric new era for Atlas • Hacker News Board

Re: An electric new era for Atlas

#421

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 4:02 PM UTC

Karellen wrote: post #326

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War is already dark and more precision makes it less dark. Winning faster saves lives.

Making war feel less risky to politicians who want to wage it for domestic jingoistic bullshit reasons[0] makes war more likely to happen in the first place, which costs lives. Also, bold of you to assume you're going to be winning. Does the excitement about this new tech hold up if you consider it from the perspective that it's going to be used against you and your troops? [0] as opposed to actual defence against in…

You're making so many assumptions that you're attacking a scarecrow. I think that more precision (which may make war "easier") makes up for it in total lives spared. How are militarized robots worse than a JDAM? If I didn't believe that it is more merciful on the whole then I wouldn't take this position.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/deaths-in-wars-project-ma...

Re: An electric new era for Atlas

#422

Post by chefandy » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 4:23 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #416

chefandy wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's different. Most PR justification of anti-consumer behavior deliberately avoids what the topic is really about to control public perception... While complexity is what the PR campaign is about, it's still really about control and artificially creating new revenue streams.

I don't think it's worth declaring what things are really about. There can be various factors involved. It's more likely to be it costs way more to make as nice a device that people want, that's also repairable. How many people would pay that premium when they're never going to service it anyway?

> I don't think it's worth declaring what things are really about

I could not possibly agree less. You wouldn't happen to work in a related industry, would you?

> It's more likely to be it costs way more to make as nice a device that people want, that's also repairable.

Based on what evidence? Current practices like locked engines, propeitary versions of standard interfaces, drm in printer cartridges, deliberately overbundled parts, deliberate incompatibility doing things like reversing screw threads on one type of screw for no mechanical benefit, planned obsolecence, etc don't support your take. These things aren't free to implement– there's a calculable ROI that they feel is worth spending millions of engineering and lobbying dollars to implement.

> How many people would pay that premium when they're never going to service it anyway?

Considering the current state is needlessly buying an entirely new device every time something breaks, which not only costs money, it uses a ton of resources, and the alternative is better engineered products and competitive local repair options, I don't think it will be a hard sell. If corporations screwed up the market bad enough to undervalue their products because they're mislabeled disposables, well then that's on them. If they can't make it work, I guarantee someone else will. Will there be downsides? There's downsides to everything. So far "stuff theoretically might be more expensive up-front even though this limits their ability to artificially extract money from customers later on without disclosing it" isn't quite a showstopper.

Re: An electric new era for Atlas

#423

Post by tomp » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 4:28 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #287

jvanderbot wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric motors dont have a lot of "give", like hydraulics do. But yes force-torque controllers can be tuned to be squishier. Someday I think electric motors will be the muscles and we'll have some kind of elastic tendons. For energy efficiency, it seems obvious to harness impact energy in a mechanical spring system, as nature does. Or just use wheels / a wheel. This whole humanoid thing strikes me as an addiction to…

It doesn't work that way. Hydraulic systems have very little "give", unless you put a hydraulic accumulator (an air tank with a fluid/air barrier) in the system. Electric motors have plenty of "give". Forcing a motor to turn backwards won't hurt it. The gear train is usually the weak point. As motors and controllers have improved, robot gear reduction ratios have decreased, which reduces the load on the gear train an…

Do you know of any direct drive motors?

One of the cheapest low-gear-ratios I found was the RMD series: (which is 1:6 or 1:10 gear ratio).

https://ozrobotics.com/shop/myactuator-rmd-x4-16-micro-motor...

Re: An electric new era for Atlas

#424

Post by robertlagrant » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 5:56 PM UTC

chefandy wrote: post #422

robertlagrant wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's worth declaring what things are really about. There can be various factors involved. It's more likely to be it costs way more to make as nice a device that people want, that's also repairable. How many people would pay that premium when they're never going to service it anyway?

> I don't think it's worth declaring what things are really about I could not possibly agree less. You wouldn't happen to work in a related industry, would you? > It's more likely to be it costs way more to make as nice a device that people want, that's also repairable. Based on what evidence? Current practices like locked engines, propeitary versions of standard interfaces, drm in printer cartridges, deliberately ov…

> You wouldn't happen to work in a related industry, would you?

No, and this is a bit of a giveaway that you're not thinking clearly. Just goodies vs baddies nonsense.

> rrent practices like locked engines, propeitary versions of standard interfaces, drm in printer cartridges, deliberately overbundled parts, deliberate incompatibility doing things like reversing screw threads on one type of screw for no mechanical benefit, planned obsolecence, etc don't support your take

I'm not saying that this never happens; again, you're being far too broad. The topic is phones. Phones used to have removable backs, and they weren't good. The iPhone stopped that, and was way better and more popular.

Things can be made repairable, but only when all actual innovation is done. Like printer cartridges. And even then, your printer may not be very repairable, as it will quickly cost as much to buy a new printer as it will to buy a spare module to replace it, if you even know what to buy and what part is not working.

> Considering the current state is needlessly buying an entirely new device every time something breaks, which not only costs money, it uses a ton of resources, and the alternative is better engineered products and competitive local repair options, I don't think it will be a hard sell

You're missing the point that making the same devices but with spares would be much more expensive. This is why Framework laptops aren't as appealing as other laptops if you factor out repairability.

Re: An electric new era for Atlas

#425

Post by chefandy » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 8:03 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #424

chefandy wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think it's worth declaring what things are really about I could not possibly agree less. You wouldn't happen to work in a related industry, would you? > It's more likely to be it costs way more to make as nice a device that people want, that's also repairable. Based on what evidence? Current practices like locked engines, propeitary versions of standard interfaces, drm in printer cartridges, deliberately ov…

> You wouldn't happen to work in a related industry, would you? No, and this is a bit of a giveaway that you're not thinking clearly. Just goodies vs baddies nonsense. > rrent practices like locked engines, propeitary versions of standard interfaces, drm in printer cartridges, deliberately overbundled parts, deliberate incompatibility doing things like reversing screw threads on one type of screw for no mechanical be…

> No, and this is a bit of a giveaway that you're not thinking clearly. Just goodies vs baddies nonsense.

Mhmm.

> I'm not saying that this never happens; again, you're being far too broad. The topic is phones. Phones used to have removable backs, and they weren't good.

No, the topic is about RTR in the context of robots and the comment I replied to was discussing phones, robots and tractors.

> The iPhone stopped that, and was way better and more popular.

Were they better specifically because the battery wasn't replaceable without a can opener? Of course not. And some people even still used the can openers. You're not giving a reason, or an excuse... you're giving a justification which doesn't even address the actual point.

> Things can be made repairable, but only when all actual innovation is done. Like printer cartridges. And even then, your printer may not be very repairable, as it will quickly cost as much to buy a new printer as it will to buy a spare module to replace it, if you even know what to buy and what part is not working.

Thanks for bringing up printers. The price for consumer-level printers is far less than they actually cost because they know they'll be able to extract insane profits after the fact from ink sales. Printer ink, as it's priced by these companies, costs about $1,664 – $9,600 per gallon-- more expensive than fresh whole human blood-- and they do everything in their power to force consumers to only buy it from them. They deliberately make the printers shitty and impossible to repair so they can continue to entice customers with the bargain priced newer models with all sorts of fancy marketing bullshit so they can sell them progressively smaller amounts of the same ink in locked-down ink cartridges for even more money.

> You're missing the point that making the same devices but with spares would be much more expensive.

BS. They don't set the price based on their costs, they set the price based on what the market will allow, and this allows them to both manipulate the market by making it seem like their products are cheaper than they are, and extract yet more money out of consumers who have little choice because the majority of consumer goods are made by a handful of vertically integrated companies. Let's take a look at the top lobbiers against RTR legislation and their net worth:

    Apple :   $2.26 trillion Net Worth 
    Microsoft :   $1.97 trillion Net Worth 
    Amazon :   $1.71 trillion Net Worth 
    Google :   $1.57 trillion Net Worth 
    Facebook :   $863 billion Net Worth 
    Tesla :   $709 billion Net Worth 
    J&J  :   $432 billion Net Worth 
    AT&T :   $220 billion Net Worth 
    Lilly, Inc. :   $178 billion Net Worth 
    T-Mobile :   $165 billion Net Worth 
    Medtronic :   $157 billion Net Worth 
    Caterpillar :   $123 billion Net Worth 
    John Deere :   $117 billion Net Worth 
    GE   :   $115 billion Net Worth 
    Philips :   $55 billion Net Worth 
    eBay :   $41 billion Net Worth

Sorry. Less regulation is exactly what created this bullshit situation where huge corporations feel entitled to extract limitless amounts of cash out of consumers that have little if any choice, and the problem is getting worse. If you think this is merely a matter of companies trying to provide the most competitively priced products and not a deliberate attempt to price gouge, you are beyond naive. Anti-consumer practices aren't a neutral facet of corporate behavior, and the organizations that profit most from it are not merely staying afloat... they're unfathomably rich and getting richer, faster, every day.

Re: An electric new era for Atlas

#426

Post by slim » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 8:26 PM UTC

jonplackett wrote: post #332

benjijay wrote: post #172

That first video of the bot standing from the floor and turning towards the camera one joint at a time does something strange to the uncanny valley horror movie part of my brain.

I am really confused by their intentions with this video. Are they trying to freak us out? If so, succeeded! But I would have thought they’d rather not have us experience atlas as some kind of freakish terminator mixed with the girl from the ring.

I think it's just still less capable than his hidraulic ancestor. so they did what they can for the video

Re: An electric new era for Atlas

#427

Post by marcusverus » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 8:43 PM UTC

EasyMark wrote: post #376

threeseed wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair the situation isn't that much better in most Western countries. Murdoch family for example has huge influence in US, UK and Australia.

Right and in most of those countries even the capitalists want better educated and/or skilled people but in the USA there are some states where there are billionaires (Tim Dunn, et.al.) actively trying to retard public education efforts and force tax payers to pay for private religious schools and have the highest officials in the state trying to push the agenda. Texas for example. So the past isn't always a good pre…

This is an aggressively bad-faith interpretation of what school-choice advocates are doing.

All school choice does is give poor parents the same kind of school choice that rich parents have.

If you're rich and the schools around you suck, you just move to a neighborhood with good schools! That means you pay taxes in that school district, which fund your kids schools.

If you're poor and the schools around you suck, you have no choices. You send your kids to the sucky school.

School choice would mean allowing the same choice for poor folks. They would be able to choose where their kids go to school, and their tax money (in the form of a voucher) would follow them to that school.

How could such a scheme "retard public education efforts"? The point of public education is not to prop up failing state-run schools, the point is educating the public. Undermining shitty schools is a feature, not a bug.

Re: An electric new era for Atlas

#428

Post by joe_the_user » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 9:05 PM UTC

robinhoode wrote: post #303

joe_the_user wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, what evidence do you have of this "wide scale robotic deployment"? More humanoid robots have been announced lately but that is all I know of. Humanoid robots have many, many challenges to deployment. Especially, creating a machine that people can safely operate near is extremely challenging. The amount of intelligence person uses to not bump another person is very under rated.

It's a hypothetical deployment but it's reasonable to expect. These robots will be very valuable, and everyone will want one. It's not going to become a housemaid in a few years. But will they be making car parts? Almost certainly. Moravec's paradox is still in play, but advancement in AI chips will slowly overcome it.

But will they be making car parts? Almost certainly.

I believe robots are currently making car parts in abundance. The robots usually are like a box with a hydraulic arm or something equivalent.

The specially and especially hard part of humanoid robots is justifying the cost and complexity of the construction by having them by "walk-on replacements" for humans and so they have failed entirely at being that.

Re: An electric new era for Atlas

#429

Post by owenpalmer » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 9:30 PM UTC

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #333

Tiereven wrote: post #264

As we enter an era of wide scale robotic deployment, we need to think long and hard about what the maintenance bottleneck will look like. We need to advocate now for reliable and open upgrades, replacement parts, service documentation, and diagnostics. Right to repair will be even more important for this technology than autos or general computing.

Literally standing in front of a proprietary Fanuc industrial 6-axis arm waiting for Roboguide at the moment... this is already a wide scale industry and shows low probability to trend towards open and repairable technology. There have been some efforts for vendor-agnostic robot software like RoboDK and other warehouse execution systems, but the default is proprietary vendor software. It would be nice for society if…

Currently in the process of trying to make a VR interface for roboguide. It's very challenging to hack around what they give you. I wish it was simpler to extend the software, but it requires an additional fee just to have the capability to make an extension. I'll admit FANUC can be pretty greedy when it comes to piling on the licenses just to do simple stuff.

Re: An electric new era for Atlas

#430

Post by romesc » Thu, Apr 18, 2024, 10:21 PM UTC

the_biot wrote: post #188

charlesabarnes wrote: post #6

Seems like they just posted a video about the new Atlas https://youtu.be/29ECwExc-_M

... a rendered video, i.e. it doesn't exist.

thats just not in the BDs ethos. They have been the only company really trying to physically build these kinds of robust, dynamic systems for the last 3 decades (almost to a fault).