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End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

theguardian.com

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Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#421

Post by squiggleblaz »

sshine wrote: post #381
AndyMcConachie wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hating jews never went out of fashion in the muslim world. Anti-semitism is a European invention that had to be imported to the middle east. One could argue it never went out of fashion anywhere.

> Anti-semitism is a European invention No, antisemitism was a thing in Rome, too. The Europeans did reinvent antisemitism several times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism > One could argue it never went out of fashion anywhere. Both Christians and Muslims vary over time between religious and racial antisemitism. And it's never truly gone anywhere jews are a minority (anywhere but Israel). In Euro…

> > Anti-semitism is a European invention

> No, antisemitism was a thing in Rome, too.

Rome is in Europe. You're obviously using "European" with some meaning more concrete than just "People who live in Europe, or with a historical connection to Europe" or else you're using "Europe" with a meaning more concrete than just "The bit of Eurasia east of the Urals and north of the Black Sea". But can you clarify how, exactly, you're using it?

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#422

Post by fancyfredbot »

temp_1337 wrote: post #363
fancyfredbot wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing people's distastefor gulf states can be explained largely by their ranking in the global slavery index [1] (three gulf states in the top ten) the global freedom index [2] (Saudi Arabia in bottom ten) and the global corruption index (gulf states are not as good at corruption as slavery or repression but they still give it a good shot). This seems more likely to me as an explanation than hating on people w…

Meanwhile, the US, Germany, and others are currently actively supporting a genocide. And it's not their first one.

Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") is a pejorative for the strategy of responding to an accusation with a counter-accusation instead of a defense of the original accusation.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#423

Post by anal_reactor »

jjfoooo4 wrote: post #410
cs02rm0 wrote: post #346

No great surprise, they have form here. The Saudis announced six megaprojects in 2005. King Abdullah Economic City was the only one that went anywhere. I believe it was supposed to have 2 million people and reached about 7 thousand. They've kicked people out of the area, killed at least one person, trashed the area with initial construction efforts (I've driven past) and now the inevitable seems to be coming to pass…

Is Dubai really diversified away from oil? My naive impression is that it’s a major center for capital, with most of that capital coming from oil. Saudi diversification from oil is a fantasy. The culture is medieval from the POV of the rest of the world, and the hostile climate is only getting worse.

Yes, Dubai diversified away from oil.

I'm not sure if Saudi Arabia can reproduce the success. The entirety of Arabian peninsula is pretty much immune to cultural development, but Dubai got a pass because they were the first ones in that area to try building a normal healthy economy, meanwhile whatever Saudis do, they have to compete with Dubai which is already highly developed.

My point being, why would people invest in Saudi Arabia if they can invest in Dubai.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#425

Post by oliviabenson »

ethanbond wrote: post #406
oliviabenson wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your conclusion from my comments is that I would have been indifferent towards slavery then I have either mistakenly passed my comments through an opinion-inverter or you're reading my comments in bad faith. I am very progressive, I hold fringe views that I don't think will be mainstream for a couple more decades. I hope I wouldn't need to say it, but for the record: I oppose slavery. I oppose gender based discrim…

No, I didn't say that you are indifferent to nor pro-slavery. I said that you'd land on the conclusion of allowing it, presumably despite your own personal preferences. Many people who opposed abolition also personally opposed slavery, but used arguments identical to yours to oppose action against slavery . The lack of action would've, obviously, allowed slavery to persist indefinitely. Can you explain how (or if) yo…

My position is quite simple: I do not believe it's possible to compare the righteousness of cultures, certainly not in a way as reductive as you've proposed, in a way that conveniently makes our culture (America) gooder and the others (Saudi Arabia) badder. Please re-read my original comment, I specifically proposed offering cultural asylum as a way to offer western moral values to others who want to live according to them. I am in favour of cultural evolution, I am in favour of taking action against our moral ills, I believe that in your hypothetical that I would have a moral duty to oppose and take action against slavery within my own culture.

My question to you is, do you believe the United Arab Emirates is more righteous than the United States? According to many measures of "goodness" like the Human Development Index (and the inequality-adjusted Human Development Index) the United Arab Emirates is a more "good" place than the United States and therefore, in your view of comparable righteousness, the United Arab Emirates is a more righteous place? Yet, the United Arab Emirates is, to many westerners (including myself and I am sure you) a place of many moral ills (including one of the most heinous: slavery). Do you believe that on your multi-dimensional most-good morality spectrum the United Arab Emirates out ranks the United States?

I'll answer that for you: no, you don't. And deep beneath this facade of objective morality, you know that morality is so deeply ingrained in your cultural upbringing that you cannot sincerely state that the United Arab Emirates is more righteous than the United States, and that regardless of what any measure, whether it's one dimension or many dimensional, whether it's black and white or a spectrum, regardless of what that measure says, nothing is above your sense of what is right and what is wrong.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#427

Post by Tadpole9181 »

TylerE wrote: post #412
Tadpole9181 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which should never be quoted as a historical reference, since: > No references to Moses appear in any Egyptian sources prior to the fourth century BC, long after he is believed to have lived. No contemporary Egyptian sources mention Moses, or the events of Exodus–Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure. It…

GP was asking about the texts, not history.

No, they said that anti-Semitism originates in Europe and you countered that the text had anti-Semitism in it. You were clearly insinuating that the text is historical and disproved their argument.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#428

Post by theGeatZhopa »

Moldoteck wrote: post #265
theGeatZhopa wrote: post #23

That comes unexpected. I really would like to see how this works out. It's a possible way of living in the future. If the earth becomes more fiendly, such cities would offer autonomous compounds for the people. Now i would like to know if somebody is building the ARCs ...

the project was/is as feasible and advanced in renderings compared to classic cities as hyperloop was compared to classic high speed rail. It's not a possible way of living in the future, because there are examples of line cities that did exist and some exist today and these cities do have drawbacks that disk/square cities do not have while advantages are minimal and this line project approved by the dictator even in…

No I want to see how the project and it's problems are overcomed. Like how to get needed concrete, how to manage infrastructure, how to build the whole, what to do inside to make it a City.

There might be line cities. But none of them is a concept like this, or are they in a desert and are 170km long and 500m high? So you absolutely miss my points.

We're now. We know more. We have more experience (like "line cities are problematic" but where exactly?)

It's not about traditional city vs line city. And here too, your dislike is stronger then your thinking of opportunities. You don't like dictator there? Ok. I wrote it down.

Not necessarily you have to travel longer, it's ineffective and all the points you say. We (and they too) still don't know how, and where. Having a circular automated highspeed transport in the ground, it's possible. "What work where" will also be regulated, the plumber won't live in the end of the line city and also won't be the only one.

Just think of "silo" (series). I don't see the impossibilities here, like many of you do. I see opportunities.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#429

Post by theGeatZhopa »

iSnow wrote: post #186
theGeatZhopa wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you can mix your dislike into your opinions, but they still stay your opinions. I'm interested in the technology, in the achievements that are possible, the problem solving and solutions found to do something of this scope. It's not about lunatics or the ** arabs dictators or killers ** say what you want. For example, the need for the special sand for the concrete. Their sand, which they have plenty of, is compl…

>he need for the special sand for the concrete. Their sand, which they have plenty of, is completely not suitable for this. It's too fine. So, how this will be solved? As usual, either the sand gets bought from poorer countries or outright stolen and sold on the black market. You can't use desert sand for building.

They have a lot of rocks there. The sands are because of the weathering of the rocks. And they have a lot of sun. Which would make grounding of rocks feasible. That could allow them to use desert sand too. Or they might find a mix between traditional and desert sand.. and some special ingredients. who knows!

if you never try, you won't find it out.

It's a way of creative problem solving. If they build it. In the "middle of", suddenly, something is not enough, then you do have to find a solution.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#430

Post by theGeatZhopa »

olabyne wrote: post #207
theGeatZhopa wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you can mix your dislike into your opinions, but they still stay your opinions. I'm interested in the technology, in the achievements that are possible, the problem solving and solutions found to do something of this scope. It's not about lunatics or the ** arabs dictators or killers ** say what you want. For example, the need for the special sand for the concrete. Their sand, which they have plenty of, is compl…

But opinions don't matter here. If you are logical and factual, that city as vaporware from the beginning. You don't need the many debunks available online to see that this project is unfeasible, whether you are talking budget, architecture, maintenance or transportation.

If your logical and factual then you don't judge it by it's feasibility. You rather take known facts and problems and try to resolve them logical - to make it better. To learn from it. It's an opportunity.

Burji (highest building) was also doomed by kings and horses. Learned a lot. Next will be even higher.

Budget talking is not my point. This somehow will be overcome. If not, it's not my problem. There are ways for getting money. You know it, I know it.

Maintenance and transportation can't be judged right now, as we didn't see it in function. You and I don't know anything about the plans.

You're speculating it will be shitty, I speculate it's possible. If you use modules. Do we have experience with modular buildings? (Yes we have..) Can we use this made experiences? (Yes..)

So you see problems before they're actually emerged. That's foresee of the future. All the debunks will be wrong if the line proves the opposite. I see the same problems as you do, but I don't think their unovercomeable..

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