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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#421

Post by lazide »

secabeen wrote: post #359
tomschlick wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context of how crazy that is... here in OH we pay ~$0.12/kwh

Another factor is topography. Ohio is pretty flat and running power lines around it is not that hard. California is big and has lots of rugged terrain. It costs a lot more to bring power to the small town in the California mountains, and those costs have to be paid by the urban and sub-urban customers of our large state-wide utilities.

In reality - PG&E has been soaking the ratepayer for decades while doing terrible maintenance - and now gets to soak the ratepayer again while fixing all the terrible issues they themselves created in the least efficient method possible.

It’s truly amazing to behold.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#422

Post by stephen_g »

liminalsunset wrote: post #129
nostromo wrote: post #114

I have mixed feelings about our heat pump system. Yes, it's efficient. But it breaks about once every other year. Last winter the compressor circuit board malfunctioned and cost $5k to fix. Two years ago it was another issue entirely. All of our savings have been lost to service calls. I'm not super price sensitive, but it's still a pain when the heat goes out in the middle of winter and all the service techs are boo…

I'm wondering if many of the failures in electronically controlled equipment are due to power surges etc. It may be worth having a whole-home (or equipment specific) surge protective device installed, which will protect the power electronics (which have very minimal surge protection built in) from anything else happening on the line (particularly if there are storms where you live often)

Whole house surge protectors are now mandated in some country’s codes already. It’s a good idea, I’m looking at installing one here myself just because I have some expensive electronics.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#423

Post by bitbckt »

mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

I didn’t pay anywhere near that price per kWh here in Maine. It was $0.16 in November 2023, and is $0.10 as of January 1.

[ETA] I just did the math to include delivery as well as generation cost if that’s what the table is meant to reflect, and I’m still below $0.20/kWh in November. Shrug. I was paying nearly $0.50 in California before moving here…

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#424

Post by s1artibartfast »

colechristensen wrote: post #241
bagels wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Utilities cost excesses in California are largely PG&E paying for its liability for causing wildfires in places where people probably shouldn’t live anyway. For example Silicon Valley Power which serves Santa Clara (or something like that) has rates that are literally half as much as PG&E. In Minnesota I’m paying for Xcel Energy’s mistakes in Texas.

People should be able to live wherever they want. That doesn't imply others should have to subsidize them doing so. It is really quite simple.

If someone remote wants power, they should secure power and pay for it at a market clearing rate, given the cost and risk to deliver it.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#425

Post by jhallenworld »

maxglute wrote: post #390
smcleod wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural gas won’t stay cheap. It was cheap here in Australia 10 years ago and now it’s so expensive no one can afford to run gas heating and it’s only going up. Now (thankfully) the government has banned the installation of new gas heating and a lot of people are getting rid of gas cooking, hot water heating etc… it’s for the best.

I remember a recent investor report posted on HN about declining health of permian basin, and the economics of extraction will increasingly not make sense in 10 years. Seems like no brainer if shale and by connection LNG is on way out. Might also explain Biden stalling LNG expansions especially with NATO on the hook, maybe it's cynical electioneering to his base, but maybe the future of cheap US LNG is not bright vs…

The fossil fuel capitalists are so very unhappy about this ban, they are still going on about it in the financial news. I have to say, I love it. Low natural gas prices directly benefit me, and isn't it our gas?

The price has certainly come down (look at henry hub chart..), but also winter has not been too cold..

They should ban oil exports next.. (for "national security")

Actually export tariffs would be better than outright bans.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#426

Post by lazide »

yterdy wrote: post #188
readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

Reminds me of the hissy fit plumbers made over no-flush urinals.

Turns out they were right about that one though.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#427

Post by stephen_g »

antisthenes wrote: post #396
nostromo wrote: post #114

I have mixed feelings about our heat pump system. Yes, it's efficient. But it breaks about once every other year. Last winter the compressor circuit board malfunctioned and cost $5k to fix. Two years ago it was another issue entirely. All of our savings have been lost to service calls. I'm not super price sensitive, but it's still a pain when the heat goes out in the middle of winter and all the service techs are boo…

> Last winter the compressor circuit board malfunctioned and cost $5k to fix. Ok, so it sounds like you got scammed. HVAC circuit boards cost $100. > Two years ago it was another issue entirely. Which was? > All of our savings have been lost to service calls. I'm not super price sensitive Yeah, obviously, if you're willing to spend $5k on a service call. > If we ever have to replace it, we're going to have to rip ope…

I’m going to second that one, that seems mind-bogglingly expensive. Definitely seems like a major rip-off. I can even buy a whole 14 kW Daikin ducted system for under US$4K here (outdoor unit and one air handler) in my country!

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#428

Post by raegis »

thelastgallon wrote: post #360
mullingitover wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Southern Cali resident here: I got a mini split system installed a couple years back, and last year's eye-popping surprise gas bill inspired me to start running it backward for heat instead of using the furnace. Pricewise, it's actually a wash. My electric bill went up by about $100 a month, whereas during the winter my gas bill was running about $100 a month to run the furnace (aside from that one random $600 bill o…

Its a wash when gas prices are at historical lows: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/rngwhhdm.htm

I'm in southern California as well, and my gas bill in dollars per therm are not at historic lows. However, price per therm did not double this winter like it did last winter...so far.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#429

Post by karaterobot »

worik wrote: post #391
torpid wrote: post #367

I live in an old furniture factory converted into lofts. LEED certified of course, with mini splits instead of forced air in each unit. This is in the midwest. For the past 11 years, every season it's failed to maintain minimum temperature of 68 degrees when it hits below 5 degrees outside, or maintain cooling in the summer. Another adjacent building built 2 years after this one with the exact same setup, same story.…

What are "mini splits "?

A split system has two parts, an indoor air-handling unit (the thing on the wall you point the remote at) and an outdoor compressor, connected to each other with a hose. Mini- because it's small.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#430

Post by Aloha »

Retric wrote: post #415
Aloha wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your math adds up. Combined cycle is like at most 70% efficient, subtract 10% of distribution, you end up with 60%. At 50f my 5T heat pump takes 6.6 kWh to generate 50,000 BTU. 6 kWh of energy takes 71cf of gas to make - accounting for transmission and generation losses. 71cf of gas will make 71,000 BTU of heat, assuming an 80% efficiency furnace, that comes out to 56,000 BTU usable. Yes a heat pump wil…

Replace your heat pump? People installing new heat pumps are going to see much higher efficiency. 50,000 BTU = 5.27528 * 10 ^ 7 J = 14.6 kWh / 6.6 kWh = COP of 2.2 at 50f which is absolutely terrible. Modern heat pumps should have a COP around 4 at those temperatures and 3 near freezing. Also, “Subtracting 10%” would mean your grid losses are 17%. “annual electricity transmission and distribution (T&D) losses average…

Its brand new!

Also, should have been 60,000 BTU - its a 15 SEER unit.

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