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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#421

Post by potatolicious »

fleitz wrote: post #418
moocow01 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO we need more of this (standing up for ourselves). I think there are some who don't fully realize the extent to which we have been lobbied against by just about everyone involved in this business to allow rates to be suppressed either through sanctioning of unpaid overtime or the facilitation of outsourcing. If you like to work a lot, fine by me - I myself spend a ton of time outside of work building software. Bu…

I try to raise this point every time someone says WLMT exploits their employees. Wal-Mart extracts about $6000 per employee in profit, this is about half the national average, and when you get to companies like GOOG, MSFT, APPL you're looking at an average of $200,000-$300,000. Who exactly is being exploited with numbers like these? And why are we 'entitled' for demanding a fair share of the value we add to the moder…

Woah, what. I was completely on the side that expecting reasonable hours and time off is not "entitlement", but yours strikes me as the exact attitude OP is railing against.

The exploitation people complain about re: Wal-Mart cannot be measured in profit-per-employee, because that's not how exploitation is commonly understood (though you are, of course, free to define that term however you see fit).

People complain about Wal-Mart because they routinely use socially unacceptable ways to curb employee costs - keeping a vast number of people in contract roles, even if their jobs are actually full-time, in order to deny them benefits, and more. This isn't about profit per employee, it's about taking advantage of unskilled labor and their relative lack of choice to treat them in ways that most of society finds reprehensible.

As compared to your standard MSFT, GOOG, and AAPL engineer who rides to work in a cushy bus with leather seats, WiFi, catered food, a 6-figure salary, a big house in a good school zone, exceptional health, dental, and vision benefits? You can say these guys are getting an unfair deal in that they generate exceptional profits relative to their compensation - but exploitation? Get real.

It's a free market, and software engineers have exceptional mobility (unlike, say, your Wal-Mart greeter). You are free to demand a $285,714 salary from Google (so that they still get their 5% cut). If you are exceptional enough I'm sure they'll agree, but otherwise... good luck!

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#422

Post by msg »

kamaal wrote: post #309
msg wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some of the ITA programming puzzles (for instance) are fun on their own merits. Not to get too meta, but what if the company essentially buys your argument? "Yes, this is a non-real world problem for entertainment purposes only..." But they want to find programmers who find such problems entertaining.

Filtering only goes so far. If you rely on these tactics instead of asking the actual questions. You will very soon end up hiring people who know nothing about the real world, but would have memorized tons of interview trivia. The problem with puzzles is just that. You ask questions and hire candidates based on issues that have nothing related to the job. The end result is you up hiring the wrong people and then say…

Maybe we are talking past each other. This is the page I was thinking of:

http://itasoftware.com/careers/work-at-ita/hiring-puzzles.ht...

These aren't classic Microsoft "puzzle questions". They are programming challenges that say a lot about your approach to programs and problems. In particular, all of them ask you to make tradeoffs between correctness and performance.

They are cool enough to attract engineers, hard enough to discourage the idly curious, and unique enough that no published solution exists. That's why I said that someone who does this kind of puzzle for the sheer enjoyment of it might be exactly what a high-level software shop is looking for.

Would I want a "puzzle expert" who could solve the problems on ITA's page? Hell yes.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#423

Post by ericd »

fleitz wrote: post #418
moocow01 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO we need more of this (standing up for ourselves). I think there are some who don't fully realize the extent to which we have been lobbied against by just about everyone involved in this business to allow rates to be suppressed either through sanctioning of unpaid overtime or the facilitation of outsourcing. If you like to work a lot, fine by me - I myself spend a ton of time outside of work building software. Bu…

I try to raise this point every time someone says WLMT exploits their employees. Wal-Mart extracts about $6000 per employee in profit, this is about half the national average, and when you get to companies like GOOG, MSFT, APPL you're looking at an average of $200,000-$300,000. Who exactly is being exploited with numbers like these? And why are we 'entitled' for demanding a fair share of the value we add to the moder…

This is silly. You're only able to make 200-300k/year for the company because of the infrastructure and audience they've built for you and all the other engineers to use as leverage. It is orders of magnitude harder to make that much on your own, regardless of how good a coder you are.

Also - we need more consumption? Wealth comes from production, everything else is just shuffling money around. People in the US are complaining about decreased wages and underemployment, not that they need more vacation.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#424

Post by endtime »

Apreche wrote: post #210
adpirz wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I'm outting myself as outsider here but: In five sentences or less, could you describe how you got to be the programmer you are today? I.e., skilled enough to be commanding the kinds of benefits you do? It's mostly out of curiosity, I'm not looking to get directly involved with programming.

I have been programming since Kindergarten. I can program in any language. I also have the skills of a systems administrator, PC repairman, etc. I can do almost anything you need to do with computers, except setup email servers (screw you postfix!) Also, don't assume that what I am demanding from recruiters is what I am currently receiving. Just because I ask for 30 vacation days doesn't mean I currently have 30 vaca…

>I can program in any language.

Maybe it's just me, but if you actually think this is relevant/interesting then I can't help doubting your credibility.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#425

Post by ericd »

luser001 wrote: post #308
mseebach wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a recruiter goes after you, and didn't bother to Google your name and look at your GitHub/OS contributions etc. he's obviously cold calling and wasting your time. He's the guy who asks DHH how much Rails experience he's got. But, on the other hand, if you apply to a company, especially one that's more or less famous, puzzles are a very good way of separating the wheat from the chaff on a level playing field. Evalu…

> Do you really think it's fair to require Stripe to assign a member of their engineering team (that means you after they hire you) to review every strangers GitHub accounts, when you refuse to invest even a little time in signalling to them that you're the real deal (the puzzles aren't all multi-day endeavours)? Yes.

Then you're being unrealistic, because the expected value of a random applicant's ability is not that high.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#426

Post by keithnoizu »

ericd wrote: post #423
fleitz wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I try to raise this point every time someone says WLMT exploits their employees. Wal-Mart extracts about $6000 per employee in profit, this is about half the national average, and when you get to companies like GOOG, MSFT, APPL you're looking at an average of $200,000-$300,000. Who exactly is being exploited with numbers like these? And why are we 'entitled' for demanding a fair share of the value we add to the moder…

This is silly. You're only able to make 200-300k/year for the company because of the infrastructure and audience they've built for you and all the other engineers to use as leverage . It is orders of magnitude harder to make that much on your own, regardless of how good a coder you are. Also - we need more consumption? Wealth comes from production, everything else is just shuffling money around. People in the US are…

200,000-300,000 gross isn't that much really. ~150.00 an hour with 40 billable hours per week ~60 actual work hours if you're freelancing. Most good programmers should be able to hit that.

As to providing infrastructure/etc, they aren't providing anything odesk and some research could provide. If someone talented set off on the own they should be able to put together similar marketing/framework/teams within a few years.

The reason we don't is because honestly we make six figures, it's easy, it's reliable, etc. and it more than enough to pay our bills.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#427

Post by brc »

throwaway1979 wrote: post #115
kamaal wrote: post #59

Well this looks like the story of nearly developer community no matter which part of the world you are in. Lets face it 'monthly salaries' suck. Programmers are a unique lot, Well last few weeks I've been pulled up for work on weekends. Almost 18 hour schedules a day. And what do I get in return? Not even a thank you. Its presumed to be a part of my job. Any other profession and unions would be up in arms about bonus…

Sir ... I tip my hat to you. Can you elaborate on #3? Are you in the US? Did you move to a cheaper location? I don't understand how the future's going to play out with respect to retirement. I'm in my early 30s if that helps. I looked for a financial planner ... but could not find any in my area. Just financial advisers wanting to sell me the latest "product". Any books/tips? Funny story: my fiance and I got went to…

I know you wrote 'Rich dad/poor dad' crap, but the original Rich Dad/Poor Dad book is one of the simplest and most useful books on personal finances ever written. But it's a book about lessons, not a prescriptive 'this is what you should do' book. The book is about understanding cashflow, and understanding what is and what isn't an investment. It's about being able to see through the crap that financial advisers throw at you, and about making people realise there are no 'secrets' to retiring comfortably or making money.

If you haven't read it, I recommend. It only takes a few days to get through.

I agree most of the rest of the series is just about milking the franchise and aren't really worth the trouble. But the first is definitely worth reading.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#428

Post by keithnoizu »

solsenNet wrote: post #234

Microsoft has learned a trick about recruiting straight from college developers. Microsoft quotes the new higher a large number (120k per year) but it is all back end weighted to a bonus at the 15th month or some sort. this allows Microsoft to see the work product and fire the ones that don't cut it, way before the bonus comes.

I think my benefactors approach to hiring fresh grads has more to do with lowered resistance to, in my personal opinion, horrible internal politics & internal systems.

It is my understanding that generally a new hire will do well on their first year's review cycle as a low mark would reflect poorly on the hiring manager that approved them. So generally you'll hit your target bonus of 15% or whatever it is nowadays.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#429

Post by keithnoizu »

geebee wrote: post #357
cbsmith wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works both ways though. A programmer position that makes business sense at 40K might not make any sense at 90K. It's not like all companies need programmers regardless of price. If the price is too high, they can just go another way.

I agree - my criticism is directed only at those companies that claim that they desperately need programmers and can't find them at "any" price. I understand that there's an implicit "reasonable" condition on price, so my real disagreement is around what counts as reasonable. Most of these companies would view a 200k salary as unreasonable. I'm not so sure. Examples abound, but I remember a company talking about how…

Including bonus and stock I make that working as a developer in test with only an associates degree in management.

It's pretty underwhelming pay for a doctorate.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#430

Post by bjornsing »

skerrit_bwoy wrote: post #344
kamaal wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, One more thing that I didn't like about it was the feeling that its OK for the employer to overwork you and then not compensate it, under the pretext of 'interesting work'. This is an old plan used by most companies. I like doing what I do, but I would love to something else if I had the money to free me up. For most people, their area of least incompetence becomes their passion.

I'll add that if you LOVE doing what you do for 40 years, straight through retirement, you are one odd duck indeed. The idea of "passion for work" is a power play to get folks to put in more for less. Don't get it twisted. Furthermore, workaholism is for people who don't understand what it means to be human. Steve Jobs was a sucker - almost as much as his followers who didn't realize that he was.

> Steve Jobs was a sucker

That's really respectful, yea.

(irony alert)

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