Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The case for single-stair multifamily

thesisdriven.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

421–430 of 562 posts

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#421

Post by eru »

gamepsys wrote: post #375
eru wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoning is already pretty bad (at least in the US), and doesn't really have anything to do with safety. In the sense that even without zoning laws, there were already public nuisance laws that wouldn't have allowed you to open a coal fired power plant next to a Kindergarten.

Zoning laws have a lot to do with safety & public health. Industrial zoning is far away from residential because factories produce pollution. Edit: Some parts of zoning law has to do with safety/health. Some parts don't. Some parts are about more than one thing. When I was growing up there was a chemical fire in a factory in town. People were evacuated. Luckily, very few homes were evacuated because zoning laws kept…

Yes, there's some value in some of these rules.

However by and large, the value that would be provided by zoning is already provided (and used to be provided) by other rules not falling under the bucket of 'zoning'. Especially not 'Euclidean zoning'.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#422

Post by hackerlight »

gamepsys wrote: post #234
adameasterling wrote: post #63

This is a fantastic article. Burdensome regulations on housing construction have caused costs to skyrocket. Minimum lot sizes, setback requirements, square footage minimums, floor-area ratio restrictions, overzealous height restrictions, parking requirements, abuse of environmental reviews, historic designations, community reviews, overzealous MFH requirements (like double-stair), below-market mandates, all have work…

Just curious, are there any regulations on housing you agree with? There tends to be belief that housing regulations exist to limit supply. Let's not forget that many of these encourage safety and are cost effective ways to increase the quality of life of the residents. If we take deregulation and cheap housing to the extreme we end up with shanty towns.

Physical safety (structural integrity and fire safety), noise transmission and ventilation. I think regulations around these 3 aspects can help more than they hurt. Beyond these items, I would be skeptical.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#423

Post by kdmccormick »

hammock wrote: post #388
kelseyfrog wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a hypothetical for a two-stairwell building: two couches. We can avoid this dangerous scenario with a three-stairwell minimum requirement.

Good point. Why do we even bother with two-lane roads and a double yellow line? Such a waste of space. Very contrived to presume there is always a car coming the other way

You're comparing a situation that happens all the time (opposing traffic) with one that happens extremely rarely (blocked stairwell in a fire). If anything, you're strengthening my point.

We should design for situations to a level that is appopriate given their frequency and severity. Show me evidence that MANDATING the extra stairwell justifies the huge increase in national housing cost, and I'll concede.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#425

Post by porkbeer »

nkrisc wrote: post #394
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... That's quite a contrived scenario. I suspect that most of the improvements in the fire safety record of apartment buildings have to do with other factors like materials used, fireproof stair doors, etc etc. The reason I think the two stairs don't do much is that first world countries exist outside North America, they don't have this rule, and th…

> A couch and a fire and that couch can't be pushed over or jumped over... You’re 85.

Or maybe they have small children. Wtf man.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#426

Post by porkbeer »

slyall wrote: post #389
jojobas wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone I spoke to who has lived with kids in both flats and houses on 600sqm blocks prefers the latter, commute (which commute?) be damned.

I'll guess this is people who can afford a big stand-alone house in a nice area

Or Those who want to know their kids are safe and have a place to play.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#427

Post by shiroiuma »

lukas099 wrote: post #381
gamepsys wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoning laws have a lot to do with safety & public health. Industrial zoning is far away from residential because factories produce pollution. Edit: Some parts of zoning law has to do with safety/health. Some parts don't. Some parts are about more than one thing. When I was growing up there was a chemical fire in a factory in town. People were evacuated. Luckily, very few homes were evacuated because zoning laws kept…

Okay, what is the safety reason my barber can’t operate out of a room in his house?

That's easy: your barber operating a business out of his house will result in customers coming to your neighborhood, and that might bring "those people" around, and we can't have that.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#428

Post by shiroiuma »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #343
astrange wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those places that don't have housing emergencies generally have just as bad regulations, and would have the same problems the instant they became appealing enough to move there. Eventually you run out of built out sprawl.

> hose places that don't have housing emergencies generally have just as bad regulations, and would have the same problems the instant they became appealing enough to move there. If American population was equalized across these other cities, there would be less pressure on the few hot places everyone wants to move now, since our population isn't growing so much these days. > Eventually you run out of built out spraw…

>Manhattan is not a sprawl and a very desirable place to live, with super high rents to boot. Hong Kong, Seoul, Shanghai, and even Tokyo are the same, so I'm not sure what you are trying to claim here.

Those cities are actually impossible to have in America (yes, including Manhattan), because of zoning laws and various other laws. Manhattan is only allowed to exist because it's grandfathered in and the local laws allow it. Such a city could never be built anywhere else in the US without some huge changes in legislation (not to mention local culture, since that drives the local legislation).

>IF you want to solve your housing emergency, limit growth in some way

Tokyo works because growth isn't limited: it's very easy to build here, unlike in the US. Tokyo builds hundreds of thousands of new housing units every single year, while the US struggles to build any. This is entirely because of regulations.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#429

Post by shiroiuma »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #415
ksplicer wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even our wood has so much fire safety chemicals baked in now that it's not nearly as flammable as it used to be. The safety standards should be reevaluated. Plus, I'm sure that there are some developers who would happily build the whole MFH out of concrete if it lets them only use a single stair.

Concrete construction is expensive in the states, although I'm not sure why. 4+1s are common here in Seattle: first story is concrete and commercial, 4 stories on top of that are wooden (we also have the more liberal stair requirements, so I'm not sure what is really going on). Concrete construction is the common way to build in China (and anywhere in Asia sans Japan), but the techniques they use require a bit of ove…

>Concrete construction is the common way to build in China (and anywhere in Asia sans Japan)

Concrete-reinforced steel is absolutely common here in Japan. Wood is used for single-family homes, though, but anything larger is generally concrete+steel.

>but the techniques they use require a bit of overbuilding and limit their towers to around 34 or so stories.

Modern condo towers around me here in Tokyo are frequently 50 stories AFAICT. And that's with extremely strict building codes for earthquake protection. I can't tell you about the stairs though, as I don't live in one.

Re: The case for single-stair multifamily

#430

Post by sroussey »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #409
eru wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't really have shanty towns in the states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tent_cities_in_the_Uni...

Tent cities != shanty towns. Shanty towns are like semi-permanent buildings, tents are just...tents you buy at REI and then set up at the park with your stuff. We had one nearby my house at the Seattle Ballard commons that lasted during COVID (and is gone now). I wouldn't have called it a shanty town like I saw in the Philippines.

Go to skid row in LA. Going on 50 years or more.
Post reply on HN