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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#421

Post by xdavidliu »

happytiger wrote: post #314
oaiey wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not the individual layoff which is the issue for the people. It is the general feeling that the little man get squeezed under the argument of cost savings and the rich man takes out even more than the year before, independent of the market and company performance. In the past the entrepreneur took the yearly risks and was rewarded or not for it. The variation / risk on the (unrealistic) return is now managed on…

It’s one metric: revenue per employee. In a more capital expensive market, such as our current one, this metric is the one corporate managers are focusing on. For example, Google: https://fourweekmba.com/google-revenue-per-employee/ Ultimately it’s about something called austerity, which is taught in mba-jargon filled economic theory as a way to keep the working classes inline. Since the 1920s, western countries have…

what do you mean by “earnings per staff member laid off”? are you dividing their total earnings by number of staff laid off? if so, then Apple earning 100 billion while laying off 10 employees would be “earning 10 billion per staff laid off”, or am i misunderstanding?

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#422

Post by wonderwonder »

sz4kerto wrote: post #209
otikik wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you are saying. I am an engineer-turned-EM and you don't know me, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt: > Your job is NOT safe. Nothing will make execs happier than having this line of thought popularized amongst engineers. It will allow them to hire cheaper, and exploit existing engineers more. I think a better way to put it is: "A job is not your family, and a job is not your identity. Yo…

I disagree and I am sad that we're teaching each other to be skeptical and cynical. The company is not your friend and not your enemy, I agree. However, people _do_ develop personal relationship with each other. Sometimes even across the different levels in the company hierarchy. Yes, as with any other relationship, circumstances and interests might override this, but relationships still do matter. People have emotio…

I don't think this necessarily holds in the world of remote work. At least for me, relationships are very surface level. Almost no friendly banter, limited 2 second "How was your weekend?" before meetings that no one cares about. Its hard to be friends with little black boxes and white text on a screen.

This is compounded when 75% of the team is made up of consultants.

I do agree though that its pretty awful but the thought of moving my family to a big city, doubling my cost of living and having to commute is also pretty bad. I live in a not tech city and would have to move to get a comparable salary at an in person job.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#423

Post by noelherrick »

SideQuark wrote: post #352
madeofpalk wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not blatantly clear that US's salaries are due to lack of developer unions.

On the other hand, the highest paying professions don't have unions, even outside tech.

Sports and movies/TV have unions, and those are by far the highest paid individual contributors. Tech workers just have been sold a bill of goods that they will be held back by unions. Meanwhile, tech CEOs "unionized" to make sure that poaching was held back, and by extension, compensation.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#424

Post by joncrocks »

wil421 wrote: post #341
typedef_struct wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I usually think actors, writers, athletes, doctors, lawyers.

What unions do doctors and lawyers belong to? Never hear of unions for these professions in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bar_Association - For Lawyers. A bit like for Doctors, they get themselves involved in the accreditation process of education facilities and then by extension the State Bar organizations.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#425

Post by alemanek »

mindwok wrote: post #98

I'm surprised to see so many comments here taking layoffs personally, or talking about how layoffs are stupid. Layoffs are not personal, and the corollary to that is that you should never treat your company as a friend. It's a company trying to maximize value. Also, layoffs do work. Almost every large, successful company has done them at some stage. They are an expected, and necessary, part of operating a company and…

For me it is the cycle of over hiring and layoffs that make me mad. Executives bear no consequences for their decisions instead the consequences are borne by the lower level employees.

What I would like to see is senior and executive management (Director+) bonuses cancelled for the year a layoff occurs. If they aren’t willing to cancel bonuses company wide then a layoff is really just stock manipulation. By making sure they bear some of the consequences maybe they will make better choices in the future.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#426

Post by devjab »

hiq wrote: post #384
ken47 wrote: post #347

Google is overrated. It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. You had talking heads yammering about how hard it was to get into Google, which to be honest, made the company even less appealing. Is this a software engineering company or some kind of hyped up nightclub? Yeah, maybe it's a hard interview if you'v…

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

In Denmark we rarely perform tech interviews the way you Americans do. Part of this is because of how available education is, so virtually everyone who’s applying for a tech job comes with some sort of academic education, meaning that they’ve proven their worth to get it. I’ve worked a side gig as an external examiner for a decade now, I’ve got good confidence in anyone I haven’t failed.

Another part is that tech interviews are often sort of useless. One of the most expensive mistakes you can make as a manager is to hire the wrong person. Even in Denmark where it’s relatively easy to let a new hire go within the first three months, you’ve still invested an enormous amount of resources into the process as well as the impact a wrong hire will have on team moral. So what we look for first and foremost is cultural and personal fit within the team you’re supposed to be working in. We’re far more likely to do some personality test on you than a technical interview, not because we believe those are a science or accurate in anyway but because they are great talking points to get to know you in a high stress situation. We do this because technical skills can also be taught, and regardless of your background, we’re going to have to “adjust” you into the way we work.

We may ask you some technical questions, but they’ll typically be on a more theoretical level than practical because we want to know how you think about tech. Again to see if your “ideological” fit is good rather than to test your technical prowess.

In my anecdotal experience this is a far better process than technical interviews. But it is made possibly by education, precious work experience and the fact that if you really turn out to be terrible then it’s “free” to let you go. It also requires direct managers and often team members to handle the process with HR on the sideline, rather than HR handling the entire hiring process… but I can’t imagine working for someone I’ve never met.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#427

Post by osigurdson »

nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

I think it is a misconception that if a company does well, it will hire more people and pay more. It is purely a supply and demand situation. The ideal number of employees in a company is zero.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#428

Post by aikiplayer »

nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

I’ve been in several different orgs that held a lot of layoffs and they’re sometimes performance related but other times just wrong place, wrong time as others have commented.

I also see advice that states you should change jobs every few years to ensure you continue to grow as a person, ensure salary growth (a real thing in my experience) and to ensure you’re staying relevant. So it seems that we want the option to move on our terms but we don’t think companies should view it the same. Management is also painfully aware that key employees can be ‘one bad meeting away’ from leaving. It seems like if we want stability then we probably need to offer some as well; many in this thread describe the relationship as either transactional or a negotiation and if we really believe it then we should view it from both sides.

Finally, there are large industries where there is significant stability: government, defense, etc. They don’t have FAANG comp, but can pay reasonably well.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#429

Post by maxehmookau »

SideQuark wrote: post #352
madeofpalk wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not blatantly clear that US's salaries are due to lack of developer unions.

On the other hand, the highest paying professions don't have unions, even outside tech.

The British Medical Association would like a word. They are a union, despite the name. UK junior doctors and consultants are currently on strike!

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#430

Post by osigurdson »

wonderwonder wrote: post #422
sz4kerto wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree and I am sad that we're teaching each other to be skeptical and cynical. The company is not your friend and not your enemy, I agree. However, people _do_ develop personal relationship with each other. Sometimes even across the different levels in the company hierarchy. Yes, as with any other relationship, circumstances and interests might override this, but relationships still do matter. People have emotio…

I don't think this necessarily holds in the world of remote work. At least for me, relationships are very surface level. Almost no friendly banter, limited 2 second "How was your weekend?" before meetings that no one cares about. Its hard to be friends with little black boxes and white text on a screen. This is compounded when 75% of the team is made up of consultants. I do agree though that its pretty awful but the…

That sounds fine to me. I always found working with people much more fun than pretending to be friends with them.
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