Live data from Hacker News

Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

electrek.co

421–430 of 773 posts

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#421
post #377
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, do you think that after someone has paid for 1 month of netflix, and downloaded their entire catalog to your phone for offline viewing, that all the videos "belongs to them and they should have full access"?

No because Netflix is not a one time purchase, it allows to use the service for as long as you have an active subscription. Also you should know that the download function is limited to 100 titles. If the game had a base cost of 0 and a monthly price to play it it would be acceptable. Quake Live worked like this and I believe Game Pass.

>No because Netflix is not a one time purchase, it allows to use the service for as long as you have an active subscription

Suppose netflix added a $10 upfront cost for subscriptions to combat people churning subscriptions or whatever. Would that make it justified to download all the shows they let you?

>Also you should know that the download function is limited to 100 titles.

I shouldn't know, because I don't subscribe to netflix :^)

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semi related question I suppose. Do the Teslas simply use GPS for their location information? If so, couldn't one spoof the GPS using a hackRF or similar?

Targeted by the FCC seems worse than violating a Tesla clickwrap agreement.

Only an idiot would let their GPS spoofer onto the air. You unplug the antenna cables from the receiver and pipe the spoof signal in there.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the feature is built in to the car from the factory and disabled via software so they can charge more then you are already paying for the parts and lugging around the added weight in the vehicle thus costing you more in fuel. Software locking a hardware feature that is integrated is an awful practice. Telsa chose to do this presumably to only have to buy a single seat configuration and streamline installs so they…

For many features it makes sense. Heated seats for example have trivial hardware costs. It's basically a couple resistive wires, plus the necessary controls. The process costs of manufacturing some cars with and some without heated seats likely far exceed the cost of the heated seats themselves, so it's cheaper to just put them in every car. But heated seats are a great upselling opportunity, people are willing to pa…

I'd be hard pressed to imagine a greater waste of resources than to include all possible hardware in all possible sold goods, with only some of the features enabled. That maximizes waste with only a portion of buyers able to use those things.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You better be ok with building your own car then, because every major player is adding subscriptions for various features. Remote start and remote lock/unlock are the most common, along with satellite radio.

The way I see it is that you're supposed to own the car and every feature you paid for it.

big tech is trying to erase this concept from the consumer mind. Assuming someone tried to do everything legally (not pirating) when was the last time anyone "owned" anything. Music, Movies, TV shows, Software, you don't own any of it you are simply paying for server space.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

Internal employee controls have gotten way more sophisticated, and cared about since it's one of the things you need to do for business focused information security.

This is true, but if I remember correctly, Apple has a very similar issue with user locked devices.

Employees have opened their own "stores", where they remove activation locks, or unlock iphones remotely for a small fee.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I say Tesla should be free to sell whatever they want, but if the end user finds a way around it too bad. The same should go for DVDs, BluRays and streaming media and yet here we are looking at jail time for bypassing the DRM.

Would you mind providing a citation stating that someone has gone to jail in any country as a result of bypassing DRM for personal use on things they purchased? I am skeptical that this has ever occurred. Even in the US, which has quite draconian anti-circumvention law under the DMCA, the criminal penalties associated with this behavior only apply to those that violate the statute “willfully and for purposes of comme…

[deleted]

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the mental gymnastic here. They built car with heated seats. You paid for car with heated seats that are technically fully functional but you can't use them until you pay even more. No, doesn't make sense to me.

> I don't understand the mental gymnastic here. They built car with heated seats. You paid for car with heated seats that are technically fully functional but you can't use them until you pay even more. No, doesn't make sense to me. That's because you don't understand. The customer didn't pay for a car with heated seats. The manufacturer included them anyway, but disabled them in software. Presumably, a consumer coul…

> The customer didn't pay for a car with heated seats. The manufacturer included them anyway, but disabled them in software.

Sure they did. Maybe they didn't pay the full price for those heated seats, but they definitely paid more for the car with them (but disabled) than for a car without them entirely.

The carmaker is hoping that people will pay for the unlock in order to recoup their costs. But they're certainly not going to ship those heated seats in every car without inflating the cost of the base vehicle by some amount.

Put another way, it might look like this:

1. Car without heated seats at all: $10,000

2. Car with heated seats, but locked: $10,100

3. Car with heated seats, unlocked: $10,500

If the carmaker offered options 1 & 3, then customers would pay for what they want and get, and nothing more. If carmakers only offer option 2, then even customers who don't ever want heated seats will still pay some premium.

The carmaker might estimate that only 50% of their customers will pay an unlock fee for a car sold to them. They want to still cover their costs and make a tidy profit, so they might charge more than the $400 difference to unlock the feature. And that's if they're doing it in the non-shady way, and are charging a one-time fee. If they decide to charge a subscription, they might do something like charge $100/year for it, and then eventually they're just making pure profit for no added value.

Also consider that the carmaker's own costs could be, on average, greater per car if they have to offer two different options 1 & 3. Offering only option 2 (regardless of whether or not people are able to defeat the software lock) might be cheaper for them. I don't see why we need to subsidize their business decisions.

But all of this is still kinda irrelevant: bottom line is that if you sell piece of hardware to a customer, that hardware now belongs to the customer, and you don't get to tell the customer what they can and can't do with it.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#428

Pretty sophisticated attack vector: low voltage attack on AMD secure execution environment during boot. I wonder how many tries you need to get whatever bits you need in the right place. Also, I imagine you only need to cut 12V wires to do this, but I admire the willingness to get in there direct on these systems. I'd be a little nervous to make those cuts personally. Buried in the article is the claim that this will…

Can you not turn off vehicle tracking?

Since a few weeks you get a classic consent screen for various categories of tracking. At least in Norway. You can turn everything off but I think some data is still sent to your phone through the Tesla servers. And I assume it’s not end 2 end encrypted.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#429
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hacking otherwise reasonable software-locked features feels like theft to me. I disagree, pretty strongly. There is a line. They sold you something in its entirety, including the seats with wires. I would agree with you if you had to download the control software from their servers. I would agree with you if you if the upgrade provided you physical wires to install, even if you had to install them. Related I think…

Maybe it's not quite theft, but like I said, at minimum, I'd expect Tesla to refuse warranty repairs (hack the software to open Plaid mode, lose your drivetrain coverage, etc). Trying to think about it in terms of "normal" cars - unlocking Plaid is similar to reprogramming the ECU on an ICE to deliver more power.

I don't have any trouble with plaid - it is hardware/software with 3 motors and other hardware, plus control software.

There is also law in place to refute what you said. Manufacturers can not deny warranty coverage if you jailbreak your phone or hot rod your car, and this is similar. (I believe they have the burden of proof if it seems you did the damage)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty...

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#430
post #241
post #228

Rent-seeking is the true American way, it seems. Good on the hackers. Good on everyone who helps to liberate us from the overreach of big business.

Is it rent seeking/overreach? I make a video game and charge $50 for it. Later I make a DLC and charge $25 for it. Is your claim that if I keep them as separate purchasable downloads, I'm not rent seeking? But if instead combine the game and dlc into a single executable (to simplify build and distribution) and put the dlc behind a software lock, somehow that is now rent seeking/overreach and I deserve to have hackers…

how is this even a question? this is exactly what happened with Star Wars Battlefront II, and EA was once again absoutely crucified by the decision to have paid unlocks for content you technically could grind for but was essentially unfeasible.

the only difference between now and 2017 is people saw EA raking in the money anyway and have followed suit, so it's now more common. the outrage was proved toothless... cause star wars sells, and so does te$la.

Post reply on HN