European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries • Hacker News Board

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#421

Post by KennyBlanken » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 3:43 AM UTC

lagadu wrote: post #285

jrm4 wrote: post #143

Just broadly, let me just echo my full throated support for regulation in this space. Forget the vast majority of the goofy "innovation" arguments I hear, the fact that 3 family cell phones, 2 laptops, Steam Deck, Nintendo Switch, and Oculus can all use the same charger makes insanely more sense that what we were doing before.

Single charger is lovely: nowadays whenever I travel I carry a single charger; it charges: my laptop, my work laptop, my phone, my noise cancelling headphones, my wireless iems, my book, my watch.

You can get cables and small dongles that convert USB-C or micro to lightning etc.

You're talking about a few-dollar problem.

I don't want a fragile USB-C port on my phone. The lightning port is a joy to use - reliable both in terms of the retention mechanism and connectivity, and easy to clean of debris.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#422

Post by webmobdev » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 3:47 AM UTC

astrange wrote: post #327

oblio wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thankfully people here are asking for good regulation, once which states that at some point in the future every phone ever sold in market X needs to have its core software open sourced, so companies can plan ahead.

The EU isn't making good regulation, they don't have any tech companies and are just attempting to make it illegal to make anything in a fit of pique. The end result may be nobody selling phones there anymore. Europe has an unhealthy culture of naturalistic hippiedom, so this is just the same thing that causes Germany to shut down nuclear power. (If you think this one's good, try combining it with their six other gia…

The end result may be nobody selling phones there anymore.

Really? Are you claiming that capitalists are so much of a fool that instead of making, say, half the profit they were making before in an unregulated market, they would readily prefer to make 0 profits? The reality is that if American BigTech exit the EU market, then some local or non-American competitor will step in to fill the vacuum. Or have you already forgotten that the European Nokia once dominated the mobile phone industry?

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#423

Post by dingaling » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 3:55 AM UTC

DropInIn wrote: post #408

beefield wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the owners/companies no longer exist, then I would think the IP should be free by default. Perhaps that's another law to work on... I think I have even more elegant solution. All IP should be subject to a tax (or maintenance fee or whatever you want to call it). As soon as the IP owner fails to pay the tax, IP falls to public domain irrevocably. The actual structure of the tax can be subject to debate. I would p…

Under your model any author would immediately lose protections unless they could afford the fees.... If you can't see the glaring problems there then there's no hope for you.... But hopefully you immediately recognize that it hurts the least advantaged the greatest while also providing a mechanism for anticompetitive behavior under the guise of following your precept (make the fee high enough and only established aut…

If the IP is commercially viable then it would generate revenue to cover the fees.

If it wasn't viable then it would either never be created or would automatically enter the public domain.

Currently, if IP is not commercially viable then the author has the choice of not creating it, or creating it and releasing it under CC or just public domain. So essentially the same.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#424

Post by speeder » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 3:56 AM UTC

unglaublich wrote: post #7

The problem is not really the battery anymore, it's the software mainly. It's all closed source and is often deprecated before the hardware is dead. Then the manufacturer makes it hard to unlock bootloaders; keeps drivers closed source and effectively bricks the device. For recurring sales are the backbone of modern economy so we must force obsolescence. Why would you want to replace a battery in a useless device? Pl…

All my last phones the battery had issues, including two phones where the battery became a ball instead of a rectangle right after warranty ended. And the battery caused problems before the software.

I ended using even a KaiOS phone just to have a phone I could replace the battery. People keep moaning about phone being waterproof yet my phones fail on me nowhere near water so what is the point?

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#425

Post by beefield » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 4:31 AM UTC

DropInIn wrote: post #408

beefield wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the owners/companies no longer exist, then I would think the IP should be free by default. Perhaps that's another law to work on... I think I have even more elegant solution. All IP should be subject to a tax (or maintenance fee or whatever you want to call it). As soon as the IP owner fails to pay the tax, IP falls to public domain irrevocably. The actual structure of the tax can be subject to debate. I would p…

Under your model any author would immediately lose protections unless they could afford the fees.... If you can't see the glaring problems there then there's no hope for you.... But hopefully you immediately recognize that it hurts the least advantaged the greatest while also providing a mechanism for anticompetitive behavior under the guise of following your precept (make the fee high enough and only established aut…

> I really get the feeling you didn't think it through at all....

I said the structure can be discussed. There is no problem giving first number of years free to see if the IP is commercially viable. The aggressive progression (doubling every year) means that literally all IP is in public domain after a couple of decades.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#426

Post by postalrat » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 5:01 AM UTC

brookst wrote: post #205

munk-a wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch makers solved this problem decades ago - there are very reasonable mechanical solutions to waterproofing. And if some limited components need to be sealed (i.e. the USB port requires special shielding) that sealing can easily exist in a device that is otherwise reasonable to maintain. Watch maintenance has been done by skilled professionals using generic tools and (generally) generic components. Waterproofing i…

How does the case size of a watch compare to the movement size? Are you prepared to have a similar ratio for your phone? Basically the phones we have now with a permanent, very durable waterproof case?

Why are you comparing ratios of office vs wristwatches? You should be comparing phones with wall clocks. Those things are mostly empty.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#427

Post by None4U » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 5:06 AM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #417

toyg wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody cares about what pmoriarty1 thinks of a word when the legal and political worlds have well-established meanings for those words; meanings that indicate the parent poster is correct in stating IP rights are not "natural" in genesis. There is a recent movement trying to redefine them as such, led by moneyed interests that would obviously stand to profit from such arguments; but legal history is very clear: IP wa…

Yes natural rights are those the constitution recognizes as coming from a Creator and those shall not be infringed. Copyright and patent are not among those. The Constitution provides that congress can grant "for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries" "Limited times" could be defined by congress to "expire" under whatever circumstances they choose.

I thought we were talking about the European Union

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#428

Post by jenadine » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 5:18 AM UTC

jacknews wrote: post #414

robin_reala wrote: post #51

Feels like, as per usual, people haven’t read the source text.[1] In order to ensure that portable batteries that were incorporated into appliances are subject to separate collection, treatment and high quality recycling once those appliances become waste, provisions to ensure the removability and replaceability of batteries in such appliances are necessary. Consumer safety should be ensured, in line with Union law a…

Exactly, the subheading 'Sleek slabs could soon be a thing of the past' is bogus. This is not a requirement to have 'cartridge' user-replaceable batteries, just that you should be able to open the phone and remove the battery (not much emphasis on actually replacing it) with easily available tools, rather than heatguns, solvents, proprietary glass-pullers etc.

Are heatguns and solvents not "commercially available tools"?

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#429

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 5:18 AM UTC

astrange wrote: post #327

oblio wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thankfully people here are asking for good regulation, once which states that at some point in the future every phone ever sold in market X needs to have its core software open sourced, so companies can plan ahead.

The EU isn't making good regulation, they don't have any tech companies and are just attempting to make it illegal to make anything in a fit of pique. The end result may be nobody selling phones there anymore. Europe has an unhealthy culture of naturalistic hippiedom, so this is just the same thing that causes Germany to shut down nuclear power. (If you think this one's good, try combining it with their six other gia…

This is a complete mis-characterization of the EU and it's ability to make laws.

As a legislative body it certainly isn't perfect but you are ascribing motivations and making statements about it that have zero connection with reality.

Re: European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries

#430

Post by jenadine » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 5:33 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #223

vineyardmike wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The portable battery pack is no more bulky than carrying around portable phone batteries? And it has the benefit of being sharable. And it has the benefit of being able to work hot - you don’t have to turn off your phone to charge it.

> The portable battery pack is no more bulky than carrying around portable phone batteries They're a lot bulkier. Phone batteries are physically very small and light. Good power banks aren't.

Power banks come in different sizes. The bigger ones also allow to recharge your phone several times. There are also small and light ones that contains energy for one full charge or less.