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Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

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Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#421
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I did not learn to read at home, I learned to read in school, in the early 80s, starting with basic alphabet in kindergarden (not before), and serious reading in first grade, which was standard then -- and by third grade was a huge nerd spending many hours a week reading recreationally, and reading "adult" novels like George Orwell. Your story is a good reminder that there may be more than one way…

Starting X early is IMO a bit of a red herring with child development, especially when they're in the low single digits. Their minds grow in power recognizably on a weekly basis (particularly noticeable when you spend a week apart) that an amazing uphill achievement at time t can be a trivially picked up thing at time t+1. I think you're right on the culture thing. My kid loves new books and understands that they con…

Also, school curricula in the US are all based on grade year... which spans almost a whole year of age within a class based on enrollment date cutoffs.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#422
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya the main problem with US education is lack of funding due to segregation. This should be the headline, not microanalysis of one specific symptom like reading comprehension. I'm growing more concerned with each passing year that we're so distracted playing whack-a-mole with each of the thousand crises facing us that we've become blind to systems-level thinking. When I was growing up in the 80s, we were taught that…

> we've become blind to systems-level thinking Well said. A consequence of no longer having a congress/senate willing to work across the aisle is that it takes so much political capital to pass a bill that there is no fuel left to apply incremental changes over time. A well functioning government will address gaps in policy changes in year 2 or 3 after new policy comes out. Instead no improvements are made until year…

Ya good point. This Thom Hartmann video popped up in my TikTok feed today and explains where the anti-public-education movement came from, as the primary way to destabilize self-governance (democracy) to continue the status quo (classism):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUHOVxjMIDA

The title may be political, but the subject matter is not. This is the kind of stuff that we used to learn in civics and social studies, which have largely been eliminated from the curriculum. Which can now be thought of as stuff like critical race theory.

Some examples of the Big Lie -> hidden truth:

* job losses due to immigration policy -> actually lost due to education spending cuts, misaligned incentives around outsourcing and tax cuts incentivizing the wealthy to keep their money instead of reinvesting it in growing their businesses

* crumbling infrastructure because nobody wants to work anymore -> actually due to loss of tax revenue because the wealthy are only taxed at 1/3 to 1/2 their pre-Reagan administration rate

* national debt because we spend too much on woke social programs -> actually due to spending more on our military than next dozen countries combined, because any non-capitalist economic success is viewed as a threat to US white/male/wealthy hegemony.

Of course the other party has its own issues. But I would argue that it hasn't had significant power since JFK, which left us in this flip-flop era where it primarily plays defense, since the loss of certain basic rights is so unthinkable that it takes vast mobilizations to stay ahead of the threats.

In other words, sabotage is a much more lucrative policy than building bridges. Which goes along with the status quo's endorsement of cheating via control of the media, judiciary, etc.

Now that mobilizations have failed in the face of stuff like the Roe v. Wade repeal, I predict that big political changes are coming in a Fourth Turning (I haven't read the book by that name yet, by William Strauss and Neil Howe).

The parties may switch sides on certain key issues. The older generation will probably find itself suddenly stripped of power, as the younger generation decides that it no longer wants to pay retirements, after a lifetime of stagnant wages and ever-increasing rents/student loans/etc. Young people may find that they have more in common with friends overseas speaking different languages, now that universal translators have arrived. Nationalism may fade after a last-ditch effort by elites to crush the proletariat beneath authoritarian fascism. And so on and so forth. So many bastions of the status quo are set to fall like dominoes should any fall, that a huge global propaganda machine works tirelessly to prevent any and all progressive wins.

Admittedly I have blind spots around failures of the left. I want to emphasize that I'm more interested in learning what those are, and raising the quality of life for the middle class, than supporting them outright based on ideology and my own biases.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was exactly my experience. I had to pass a review board before I began my senior year, and it was essentially an "ideological indoctrination" examination. I said what they wanted to hear. What else was I going to go with the 3 years of education that I had already purchased? I was fortunate to study at a college that emphasized field-based experience, because it was the only degree-related value that I left with…

What's the easiest way for me to learn about this ideology? Is there a test prep or similar?

I'm guessing it's combo of:

- equity and social justice

- culturally-responsive teaching

- student-centered learning

- learning styles

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can also personally vouch for Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons. It accelerated my ability to teach my kiddo to read by doing exactly what I wasn't an expert in - designing a reading pedagogy. We worked though the book in pandemic kindergarten and I can't help but attribute his current reading success to the work we did back then. It was a silver lining in a time of uncertainty and the memories I have of…

I've tried this book. My son won't follow the instructions exactly. And the book makes it clear they must be followed exactly. i don't know what to do.

I recommend trying just one activity in each lesson per day at first - start really slowly.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of my parents learned to read at home, in poverty. Both had educated parents, who had been displaced by the events of the era. I learned to read at home. Both of my kids, likewise. It didn't even remotely occur to anybody in the family that learning to read was special, or that there might even be any way to teach it other than phonics. English has a phonetic alphabet after all, right? Moreover, learning to read…

On the other hand, I did not learn to read at home, I learned to read in school, in the early 80s, starting with basic alphabet in kindergarden (not before), and serious reading in first grade, which was standard then -- and by third grade was a huge nerd spending many hours a week reading recreationally, and reading "adult" novels like George Orwell. Your story is a good reminder that there may be more than one way…

> And my parents read to me a lot before I could read.

I think this is the huge thing in common here. If kids are read to from a young age some might pick it up almost "on their own" while others may wait and learn in early elementary school "on schedule", but I think will largely see similar outcomes. But the ones coming at it for the first time from _not_ having experienced reading, even if only from being read to, are starting from a perspective lacking both background and motivation.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#426
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I guess a good of framing this is yeah, it is "the education institution's side of this argument". I see it as informed by decades of shifting research on how to teach reading and attentive to the tension between "we need regulations to guard against bad teachers" and "we need to give teachers the freedom to apply their expertise". Most of the rest of your argument is just not realizing that those are the act…

Sorry, I should have been clearer, totally agree about the podcast being a poorer source on the reality and history, and just not trustworthy on the big picture. The article you shared is a fantastic resource, but I would think better of it if it had laid out the sort of strong, pragmatic argument you made here about teachers' autonomy. The article really doesn't want to question the status quo, which would be fine f…

Yeah I think we're kidding ourselves if we think there's not some level of aesthetics involved here. I would imagine most teachers (not all but most) would like it if teaching were a holistic, organic journey of learning and discovery--I'm not disparaging here, that sounds nice to me too--to the point they'll really try to make those approaches work over more proven/grounded ones that are more assembly line and impersonal. And I buy that a fair amount of animosity against NCLB played a role too.

> I would think better of it if it had laid out the sort of strong, pragmatic argument you made here about teachers' autonomy

I wouldn't mind something more concrete either. There's educational research out there, but not a ton, and what I've read is pretty non-committal and not very prescriptive. I don't know if that's in deference to "trust teachers" or what have you. I do know that from time to time, teachers who are trying very hard to teach their kids using old, busted techniques they learned in school and are--rightfully so--super bitter when they discover "new" techniques that are decades old and proven more effective, so it's not like there's not an audience for this stuff.

Mostly I think this argument is just two sides that don't trust each other at all, and they're lobbing whatever they can over the wall to try and win the argument (you don't care about dyslexia, you're dooming children to illiteracy to stick it to Bush, blah blah blah). I think that's a big problem. Education in the US is super messed up despite costing a ton, everyone knows it, and it's probably impossible to fix because of the political and bureaucratic structures involved. But it definitely doesn't help when our educators are rejecting government educational research because of (earned) political/cultural mistrust.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those topics that people debate endlessly because what works "for most" does not work "for all". I learned full word reading, it works great for me. I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. Pretty sure I didn't internalize "e at the end makes vowels long" until nearly high school. I read really fast,…

> I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words Taking words on a page and reading them out loud is a fundamental aspect of reading. The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. From my perspective, the problem is this. Phonetic reading naturally encompasses whole word reading, because a child who starts reading with phonics, eventually read…

>> I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level.

> The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic.

I don't really think that's what they're saying here. They wrote "by 5th grade I was reading at a college level". They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. That's different than "not fully able to read".

>> I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it.

> This is not exceptional for an adult.

Sadly, I think that it is. I looked up US literacy rates for this thread to validate my memory that they were something like 98%. I learned that not only are they 92% at "level 1", but only "[f]our in five U.S. adults (79 percent) have English literacy skills sufficient to complete tasks that require comparing and contrasting information, paraphrasing, or making low-level inferences" [0]. I know this isn't exactly directly responsive to reading speed or whatever, but this is just to say I had a much rosier picture of US literacy in my head and maybe you do too.

[0]: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I got similar questions for the French, btw. "Oiseaux"? Really, French? “Oiseaux” is perfectly regular and involves no exceptions to the baseline rules of French pronunciation, though, AFAIK; if it were pronounced any way other than it is, it would warrant a question...

Of course but that's not GP's point I think. A kid shall wonder why it's not at the very least "oiso" (when there's one) or "oisos" (when there are several). Or even why not "waso" (with "wa" as in "wapiti"). And anyway we all know that there's only one way to write "Mister oiseau" in french and it's "Mr Oizo" (french electro btw): https://youtu.be/qmsbP13xu6k

Well the discussion is about phonics, so I was thinking of how none of the letters in "oiseaux" are pronounced. That was pointed out to me by a French colleague. Although he stopped at "oiseau", strangely. Anyway I thought it was a common joke of sorts.

I guess you could argue that there is an "aah" after the "oo", so the "a" in "-eaux" counts, but the "aah" is not pronounced where the "a" is written in the word.

Btw, I can't make a good French accent on a keyboard but: oo-aah-zoh.

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#429
post #90

The fact that the education system managed to forget how to teach kids how to read is unbelievably infuriating. I have been guilty in the past of rolling my eyes at “teachers are heroes, teachers should be paid like rockstars”. I don’t feel guilty anymore!

A similar tragedy was losing an effective treatment for scurvy, later rediscovered and connected with Vitamin C.

https://idlewords.com/2010/03/scott_and_scurvy.htm

Re: Sold a Story: How Teaching Kids to Read Went So Wrong

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> We were told it was better to let the teachers teach otherwise kids learn bad habits or don’t engage. That sounds like very dubious advice to me, even if given with best intentions. Surely if parents read books to their kids, with their kids, then it is a natural step for the kids to start learning the words and word sounds by reading too?

Reading back what I wrote, yes, we never took this as a warning not to let them learn at all! I think the intention was more that there is less incentive to actively push or pressure kids in to reading before school, and that actively trying to teach them one methodology might even conflict with the method they end up being taught in school. That parents try to "get their kids ready for school" by getting them to rea…

> actively trying to teach them one methodology might even conflict with the method they end up being taught in school

That's what happened with me. My teacher would give me zero on a math question if use the methodology my dad taught me.

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