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Cigna saves millions by having its doctors reject claims without reading them

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Re: Cigna saves millions by having its doctors reject claims without reading them

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some real world examples of beneficial privatized healthcare?

Concierge doctors. To be clear, we are talking about benefit to the patient; there's lots of reasons concierge doctors may not be the best benefit for society at large. But that's immaterial because this is just one example; if we hadn't gone for the worst possible way to scale private medicine, then there could be better examples. But the point is that you can't seriously look at concierge doctors and say that publi…

This is a great example. Alas, I'm pretty sure I disagree.

I am an early adopter of concierge care. It's been tremendous.

I had a bone marrow transplant +30 years ago. Continuity of care has been an ongoing challenge.

From my reading and my own experience, having a patient advocate greatly improves outcomes. Someone who just keeps everything on track. Could be family member, friend, or a nurse / case worker. For me, it's now my concierge doctor. (Over the years, I've served as advocate for other patients many times.)

My current issue with concierge (patient advocates) is that it's rare. Everyone should have this. In times past, it was a family's doctor. But as everyone knows, that relationship is no longer stable, due to how healthcare in the USA has been commodified and "optimized".

Further, according to the research (like what Atul Gawanda has written about), specialty "wrap-around" practices greatly improve outcomes. Like for diabetes, cystic fibrosis, and other chronic life threatening conditions. Most all of a patient's care is done by these multidisciplinary primary clinics. One stop shopping. Instead of bouncing patients around, delegating the coordination and whatnot onto the patients themselves.

Again, thank you for this example. It's an interesting edge case. Today, I think most concierge arrangements are private. Whereas it should be the default, public or private.

FWIW, maybe about 10 years ago, Medicare and the VA had started to adopt the capitation model (preventative care vs fee-for-service). Now I'm curious what they (or any other large orgs) are doing wrt concierge (patient advocates).

Re: Cigna saves millions by having its doctors reject claims without reading them

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a simple solution. Insurance HAS to pay if a doctor recommends it. This is what premiums are for. If insurance cannot pay, they can go out of business.

I don't love insurance companies and I don't love the profit incentive they have. If a patient breaks a leg and a doctor recommends not experiencing gravity for a while, do we fly them to space? I am using hyperbole to demonstrate a point: there are meaningful economic limits that must be created by some entity and enforced. What is the value of a human life? The GDP of a nation is a hard upper limit. The total money…

You aren't wrong, per se, but until the incitive for the insurance company stops being "maximize profit", they shouldn't be allowed to make decisions about how health care dollars are allocated.

Re: Cigna saves millions by having its doctors reject claims without reading them

#423
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incentive to maximize profits (i.e. minimize costs and maximize number of customers) is the benefit of a privatized market. The profit-minimizing mechanism is supposed to be competition, because then people switch away from plans that have a poor balance between price and rejecting claims. But because most plans are tied to employers, that part doesn't work. If you had a non-profit with no competition it would be…

I understand what you’re saying but I don't think it’s so simple when you involve human lives. When you have shareholders and a board demanding profits, fucked up things happen like you don’t get the new MRI machine because it’s bad for the bottom line. Or you pass on the state of the art surgical robot because it won’t pay for itself quick enough. Both examples would increase outcomes for patients but don't happen b…

If you have multiple non-profits competing with each other for price-sensitive insurance customers, they have the same incentives. The new MRI machine will require them to raise premiums which will lose them customers, so the providers with the most customers will be the ones that cut costs. Unless customers can measure and prioritize service quality over price, but if that was possible it would also be possible with for-profit insurers.

If you have no competition, the problem shifts the other way. The MRI machine is ten years old, so buy a new one even if it still works, because there is no competition so nothing stops them from raising premiums to pay for it. Then the MRI manufacturer declares that they're only supported for five years and by the way the price has gone up, because they know the non-profit isn't price-sensitive and the patients have no other choice. (Unless you put government pressure on them to keep costs down, and then you're back to cost cutting.)

The underlying problem is that you need an objective way to measure whether some cost is worth incurring. The best metric we have for that is whether the patient is willing to pay that amount of money for it, having been informed of the consequences by their doctor. Sometimes the answer is no -- it really might not be worth spending a million dollars to extend the life of a 78-year-old by six months.

But it probably is worth spending $100,000 to extend the life of an 8-year-old by 70 years, even if the 8-year-old doesn't have $100,000. Which is where you want some kind of insurance.

Where we screwed up is in making "insurance" cover minor procedures that really ought to only cost tens to hundreds of dollars out of pocket, because then the insurance causes those costs to balloon up to thousands by providing a deep pocket that can fund excessive bureaucratic inefficiency. (It also doesn't help that the AMA engineered a doctor shortage so now doctors are overworked, patients are less informed and prices are higher because of supply and demand.)

Re: Cigna saves millions by having its doctors reject claims without reading them

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You talk about a 'system'. The system is in the mirrors, yours and mine. We are it. American tradition is that one person makes a difference, which seems pushed aside now by the fetishization of despair and doom. Also, it's about far more than voting. Voting is done every once in awhile. Citizenship is every day. Powers-that-be are watching and investing enormous energy in manipulating public opinion - for a reason.…

I’m not sure that our comments are really all that connected, I used “single payer healthcare system,” as in the term-of-art for a way of distributing funds for healthcare. You seem to have gotten latched onto the word “system” and seem to be using it in a sort of broad “fight the system” way. There definitely aren’t any healthcare systems inside of my mirror, not even the bathroom one with a cabinet behind it.

It's a useful way to not address the merits of what I'm saying. That's too bad; we could have talked about something important.

Re: Cigna saves millions by having its doctors reject claims without reading them

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are you to impose your opinion on the rest of us? Who are you to shoot me or my neighbor?

We're talking about people who sell insurance and then do their damnedest never to pay out. You don't want to get shot? Don't try to cheat people out of their money, especially when it is about their healthcare. It isn't complicated.

Who decides that it's wrong, that I in particular am guilty, and that the punishment is murder? You?

Re: Cigna saves millions by having its doctors reject claims without reading them

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If voting could change anything it’d be illegal. Yet things do change, dramatically.

And I do wonder what the root of that is.

The root is you. The root is people believing they can change things. The far right believed it and has (unforunately) achieved inconceivable successes based only on utter bullshit and madness.

Re: Cigna saves millions by having its doctors reject claims without reading them

#428
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what you’re saying but I don't think it’s so simple when you involve human lives. When you have shareholders and a board demanding profits, fucked up things happen like you don’t get the new MRI machine because it’s bad for the bottom line. Or you pass on the state of the art surgical robot because it won’t pay for itself quick enough. Both examples would increase outcomes for patients but don't happen b…

If you have multiple non-profits competing with each other for price-sensitive insurance customers, they have the same incentives. The new MRI machine will require them to raise premiums which will lose them customers, so the providers with the most customers will be the ones that cut costs. Unless customers can measure and prioritize service quality over price, but if that was possible it would also be possible with…

I guess I'm okay with costs increasing if it means the quality of care is increasing and it's going to care providers not to shareholders. That's the implication of a non-for-profit, that all costs go back into employee salaries or equipment overhead. I'm okay with a good medical team making bank or with pricier but stellar facilities justified by results. I'm sure no system is perfect, but if we'll get the same results removing the profit motive, why not eliminate that potential conflict?

> Where we screwed up is in making "insurance" cover minor procedures that really ought to only cost tens to hundreds of dollars out of pocket, because then the insurance causes those costs to balloon up to thousands by providing a deep pocket that can fund excessive bureaucratic inefficiency. (It also doesn't help that the AMA engineered a doctor shortage so now doctors are overworked, patients are less informed and prices are higher because of supply and demand.)

This is 100% true and concurs with complaints I've heard from doctors (both bits, the broken model and artificial doctor shortage). Insurance isn't the right model for baseline healthcare. People should be willing to pay for routine care like they pay for anything else (food, TV, movies, games, etc.). It should cost $30 to get a physical because it takes a doctor 15 minutes, not $300. Insurance should kick in for absurdly expensive "disaster scenario" procedures that nobody can be expected to afford.

Re: Cigna saves millions by having its doctors reject claims without reading them

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about people who sell insurance and then do their damnedest never to pay out. You don't want to get shot? Don't try to cheat people out of their money, especially when it is about their healthcare. It isn't complicated.

Who decides that it's wrong, that I in particular am guilty, and that the punishment is murder? You?

To the extent there is anything that can be called "objective" morality, betraying social contract and causing other people to suffer for your own profit is going to be on the "wrong" side of that.

Going all philosophical here is, what, you making excuses for being a monster? Because what you're saying is that ruining other people's lives for your own profit is fine.

And yeah, violence is an extreme and distasteful solution, as I said. But if the only other option is to suck it up and let the exploiters win, then that's on them. You don't get to have a hypocritical morality system where it is ok for you to inflict harm on others for your own profit and not ok for them to inflict harm back in self defense.

Re: Cigna saves millions by having its doctors reject claims without reading them

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I do wonder what the root of that is.

The root is you. The root is people believing they can change things. The far right believed it and has (unforunately) achieved inconceivable successes based only on utter bullshit and madness.

That’s one way of looking at it certainly. However I’ve never in all my life voted in any election where my vote had any capacity to have any bearing whatsoever on the outcome of the election. This is by design: America is about clumping people together into voting blocks so large that first past the post dynamics prohibit any but the most conventional of viewpoints rising to the surface.

What have the “far right” changed? And was it through voting or other means? In a sibling I admit violent revolution as a plausible change causer, and claim it is unique in that regard.

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