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Banning words won’t make the world more just

theatlantic.com

421–430 of 1001 posts

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#421
post #411
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I describe these scenarios to my young children as concentric circles. One person can be acting reasonably (small circle around them) or very badly (larger circle). A person nearby can be very resilient (small circle) or fragile (larger circle). Where the circles overlap, is when there is tension and there are fights, tears or anything else that requires me to intervene. Obviously very bad behaviour (large circle) is…

Pediatric Postel Principle.

Pedantic Prosaic Pediatric Postel Principle

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#422
post #363

What was it, 10 to 20 years ago, people started to be noticeably nervous when they were coming near a description of my disability. It used to be so simple. I am 100% blind, and guess what, I prefer the term blind because it is pretty descriptive and relatively short. But all of a sudden, people external to the community started to fumble around with "visually challenged", and all the nonsense variations of that in m…

This is the exact same dynamic that happens with comedy. When a comedian offends a group, it's typically not people from that group who complain - it's third parties who step in to represent that group. IMO the purpose of language changing is not to improve the world; instead, it's to give the feeling of changing the world without putting any real effort. Fun (in a sad way) fact: a friend of mine collaborates with an…

A single person shouldn't be able to be diverse on their own! That's a property of groups. You can try to define a "default person" and then say you want each individual to differ from that in your favourite characteristics, but that's a different game and provides none of the benefits of actual diversity.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#423
Who's banning whom, though? If I decide to call a pregnant woman a "person with pregnancy" and someone jumps down my throat and screams, "she's a PREGNANT! WOMAN!!" who's doing the language policing here? If I've adopted some trendy equity lingo, that's on me. I'm not telling you what to call her, why are you insisting that I call her by the god-given American apple pie Christian traditional term? I mean, I can fairly guess why, because "person with pregancy" probably sounds icky, performative, and vaguely dehumanizing to you. But if you are a Defender of Free Speech, then you should be supporting my right to utter the terms I prefer from my own mouth, as long as I don't try to force those words into yours. And yes I know there are plenty of "progressive" types that will try to force people to use socially correct speech, but Packer's article is complaining about equity language guides being used by corporations, an entirely different phenomenon. Why is he bent out of shape about this? I don't have a problem with Sierra Club enforcing stylistic etiquette in their own writings, as long as I myself not being compelled to conform with their corporate judgment call. Polite language changes over time, and it's reasonable for companies to adapt to that. I'm old enough to have heard tales of when "pregnant" wasn't used in polite company at all, and people instead said, "she's with child."

Packer recognizes this on some level, stating, "The battle against euphemism and cliché is long-standing and, mostly, a losing one." But I think he's a bit off with his next assertion: "What’s new and perhaps more threatening about equity language is the special kind of pressure it brings to bear. The conformity it demands isn’t just bureaucratic; it’s moral." No, euphemism has always been moral. What's new now is that everyone's a publisher now thanks to social media. So it's not just Emily Post, The Hays Code, the US Congress, and other big gatekeepers determining by fiat what counts as offensive, and the rest of us passively falling into line. Now every loser gets to proclaim to the world how offended they are, and due to the nature of social media, the more controversial and theatrical their level of offense is, the more engagement they will receive. Couple that with modern tribalism where people have to prove their loyalty by completely accepting all tenets of their tribe and utterly rejecting all tenets of the opposing tribe.

Personal anecdote: I was raised to believe that "the n-word" was inherently offensive. It was never spoken in my house, and to this day I don't use it in casual conversation. But I also loved the work of John Lennon. He had an album which featured a song entitled "Woman is the N*** of the World." The word was spelled out on the album cover and sung in the lyrics. When I was young I would feel hot and embarrassed listening to that track, so I would generally skip it. But I understood and appreciated the sentiment behind it. Even at a young age I could separate his laudable intentions from the potential inappropriateness of his methods. Anyway, it would never have occurred to me to stop listening to Lennon entirely just because of one cringey song. Much less to call radio stations or whatever and try to get them to stop playing his music. It's not that I don't get highly offended over people saying the N-word. I do. I just believe that, although we should strive not to be needlessly offensive, in the hierarchy of things that are wrong with the world, "getting offended" is pretty far down. Thus I can't get behind hair trigger "social justice" warriors who want to destroy the lives of everyone who in their estimation holds shitty personal beliefs. But what's even worse are the "free speech" warriors who with no sense of irony will attempt to enact laws banning the speech and ideas of their opponents.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reeks of criticizing others for your own faults. Someone who makes 12k is poor. If this is offensive to someone then clearly they have a low opinion of poor people. Yet everyone else is reprimanded for it.

I don't have an issue with using the term poor to describe people lacking money but it has other definitions and uses. The second and third definitions I get from define:poor on Google are: - worse than is usual, expected, or desirable; of a low or inferior standard or quality. - (of a person) considered to be deserving of pity or sympathy. I suspect these might be why the term is discouraged.

In German the word for poor ("arm"), while there is some connection to pity like in English (one can be "arm dran", "poorly off"), can't be used to describe bad / undesirable quality.

It was still replaced with "sozial schwach" (literally "socially weak", but actually means financially weak, people who don't have much money) in many contexts, especially by politicians and journalists.

(Thankfully, there is a push against "sozial schwach", to use "arm" again - it's a horrible phrase)

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#425
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not self conscious at all my dude (I'm not one of those insensitive woke people who get off on making everybody feel like shit to try and elevate themselves at all costs), glad I made you chuckle. How do you consume movies? I didn't know that the ̶a̶c̶c̶u̶r̶s̶e̶d̶ "visually impaired" do that. Dope. Don't know why I'm surprised. I bet blind fury would watch movies somehow too. Also, you should obviously change your us…

Regarding how to "watch" movies: Its actually as simple as turning the TV on and listening to what comes out the speakers... In the 80s, movies were actually much more story-driven then today. Even if you missed something happening because you didnt see the visuals, you would get it typically a few seconds or minutes afterwards, because somebody was refering to the event and therefore uncovering the riddle. Something…

Makes sense actually. Now that you mention it I can imagine Casablanca to be enjoyable to "watch" even with my eyes closed. A lot of the black and white stuff. I guess they were (better) written, more like plays, with actors projecting their voices. Now they do the mumble whisper thing, even native speakers are forced to turn on subtitles for increasingly terrible plots.

BTW you should know my comments had a +5 and now are being downvoted by the woke mob, who know what is best for you.

Edit: And its back to very positive. I only remark on this when the cowardly woke losers try to bully people with downvote brigading otherwise the points don't matter. Bet there's a lot of screeching on a Mastodon somewhere.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#426

The pendulum is swinging back because equity language censors took this way way too far. People-first language ("enslaved people" not "slaves") makes complete sense to me, but making a big fuss about how common English idioms like being "blind to a problem" is somehow offensive is going to earn you nothing but eyerolls from nearly everyone. Some of these, like "grandfathering", cannot even be understood without deep…

>For example, it seems like we can't say "mother" anymore in medical settings. For my partner's entire pregnancy, our providers only referred to "birthing people" because of some tiny number of trans men that exist and also want to give birth. The troll argument here is: now that we're saying "birthing people" instead of "women", it's time to acknowledge that abortion is not actually a "women's issue".

> now that we're saying "birthing people" instead of "women", it's time to acknowledge that abortion is not actually a "women's issue".

Which is partly right, to be fair. It’s a fundamental human right issue about who can force things on your body. The consequences also affect whole families, not all men are arseholes who vanish when their girlfriend gets pregnant. Framing this as only women’s issue is part of a dangerous tribal war.

It is also part of a pattern of subjugation of a social group on religious grounds, and as such part of a broader attack on secular, liberal societies.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#427
post #363

What was it, 10 to 20 years ago, people started to be noticeably nervous when they were coming near a description of my disability. It used to be so simple. I am 100% blind, and guess what, I prefer the term blind because it is pretty descriptive and relatively short. But all of a sudden, people external to the community started to fumble around with "visually challenged", and all the nonsense variations of that in m…

The difficult part of this being, some of the 100% blind people effectively don’t like the word and don’t want to be called blind. Then some people are ‘only’ 80% blind, and don’t want to be called blind. Then some family members of blind people don’t want the word to be used.

I think it’s pretty common phenomenon, like the people who call themselves “black”, those who are called “black” but hate it, and everyone in the middle usually not knowing what’s the position of any specific person’s on the issue.

I don’t think there even is a correct answer, as long as there are many people in different situations with different perceptions of what the words mean, there’s no way we get a consensus on this. At most we could get a majority sharing a common sensibility and bully the rest into submission, as it happened so many times in history.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A pregnant person is a woman.

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I think that highlight my main gripe about what I'd call excessive inclusion. Sure there are some people who identify as male, who will go on to become pregnant, but they have to understand that they are not representative of anything. The number of trans-men who also become pregnant is so tiny that it's beyond an edge case, it's not something that needs to be accounted for everywhere. That's not to say that they shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else, or that we should tolerate actions taken against them. It's just that some groups are so tiny that having special language or accommodation for them makes little sense.

If they are successful in have a pregnant trans-woman in Unicode, you just know that, depending on the depiction, it will be used as "The fat guy"-icon.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Mail carrier" instead of postman started in the 70's. Same with "flight attendant" instead of stewardess. This has been going on a long time.

Gender suffixes have always had a gender connotation, because it is plainly what they mean.

> Gender suffixes have always had a gender connotation, because it is plainly what they mean.

no, it isn't what they mean. you might say it's "equally" sexist, but "man" meant "mankind", it meant "person", and woman comes from "wifeman", person who is a wife. So mailman is "person who delivers mail". A good way to think of it is that language is actually neutral. Cultures have ideas and values, and those ideas and values suffuse communication, but the language is just a transport mechanism and will be bent and altered to communicate what people are thinking. But the language, always neutral.

it's similar to the names of native american tribes. There are so many examples of "the Sioux didn't call themselves the Sioux, they called themselves Lakota, their enemies called them the Sioux." What did Lakota mean in Lakotan? It means "the people". Everybody else? they weren't even people. Every native american tribe did that, and probably our own hunter gatherer ancestors did that too.

None of this is cause for concern, it's actually really interesting.

Re: Banning words won’t make the world more just

#430
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because they care more they were bullied in the past than about your feelings. People appropriating your disability to excuse their bullying has led to what is effectively PTSD dealing with the groups whose voice was appropriated. That’s sad — and has impacted not only disabled people, but race and gender relations. I miss 10-20 years ago, when people were people rather than defined by protected class.

Amen. Its sad, and there seems to be nothing we can do about it. To a degree, I am used to being treated in a condescending way. This is just a level up, the worst kind: "I know better how you should be treated then you because you are to simple to know what I already know."

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