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AWS and Blockchain

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Re: AWS and Blockchain

#421
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in an extremely limited sense. You have to trust the developers, for one. Also it's only trustworthy as far as everything happens on the blockchain. Once you step off it for even a second, it doesn't help. Eg, witness the absolutely amazing number of scams happening in the area, and the number of well known, and supposedly trustworthy services suddenly crashing and burning.

There are a set of rules that applies to everyone and are enforced by everyone. Re: trust the devs: do you trust the electricity in your house? What about the wires in the wall? Do you trust others to follow traffic rules?

The point is that blockchains have different incentives for different parties, and the interests of the most influential people don't necessarily align with those of the users. So the vast majority (users) are just really switching to a different master.

Eg, I had a passing interest in BTC, but I my interest was in the very old school "buy pizza with it" kind of use. That usage is of no interest or importance to the current BTC system, and it doesn't matter one bit how many of me there are.

The people who matter are the people who commit to the repo, the people who run miners, and the people who run exchanges. The desires of the 99.9% who aren't any of these are nearly irrelevant.

Re: AWS and Blockchain

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author also says all of the implementations he witnessed were reliant on databases and did not require the unique complexity and challenges of the blockchain.

Whether or not the underlying storage mechanism uses a database is not the point. The point is who can edit that database and under which rules (imagine that database holds a lot of your money and you live in an oppressive regime).

> imagine that database holds a lot of your money and you live in an oppressive regime

That opressive regime holds:

- your access to the internet (crypto requires continuous access to internet to function)

- your access to exchange offices because crypto is useless if it cannot be converted to fiat

So, what exactly have you solved?

Re: AWS and Blockchain

#423
Amid all this sudden blockchain skepticism, one question remains prominent in my mind: where were all these skeptics when blockchain enthusiasm was on the rise?

Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but you have to wonder if this chorus of I-toldya-so's were genuinely right, or if they are merely rewriting history to boost their own credibility.

Blockchain was always experimental. The chance of success on any given project was always slim, but the potential payoff huge. So, putting anything more than what you are willing to lose is reckless.

Re: AWS and Blockchain

#424

I think the cost of trust is underestimated. All those shiny skyscrapers that the banks build? It's for trust, along with a good deal of banking licensing requirements and regulation. The example with the farmers' fields is quite valid. We forget in our relatively well-governed western nations that some governments really can't be trusted to simply keep records straight and not 'lose' vital documents, in cases where…

You actually know something about the finance industry, not sure this is the thread for you ;) You're absolutely right about the core problem. I worked for several years on an 'enterprise blockchain' system. We often called it distributed ledger technology because our platform didn't actually use chains of blocks or proof of work, and it didn't have a token or anything like that. It was essentially a type of database…

Hi everybody... Richard Brown, CTO of R3, the firm behind Corda, here.

As Mike says, we're somewhat unusual in that there are many live, successful Corda deployments around the world. Mike's comment about how Corda is blockchain-like but not, strictly speaking, a chain of blocks is at the heart of this I think. Here's what I mean:

How many 'introductory' presentations have you been to (or, worse, given) to semi-technical people, where Bitcoin and other public blockchains are 'explained' by describing the components? You probably know the sort of pitch I mean: they laboriously build up the concepts - transactions, signatures, hashes, blocks, chains of blocks, mining, etc, etc. Such presentation are usually correct. But they impart almost no intuition. It's little wonder that so many 'business people' come away from them thinking that a blockchain is some sort of mysterious and magical technology.

There's a presentation I like to give where I go the other way. I give a one-line description of the problem Bitcoin solves [1] and then I help the audience 'invent' Bitcoin for themselves from first principles. There's an old blog post of mine that gives the rough idea [2]. The point is that successful architectures solve well-stated problems. Cargo culting never works.

Where I think many corporate deployments of blockchain went wrong was that they saw the huge enthusiasm for 'blockchain tech', had a vague intuition that 'inter-firm' or 'market-level' problems were ripe to be solved, but they never fully internalised that Bitcoin's (or Ethereum's) architecture isn't some sort of inviolable, handed-down-from-high blueprint... it's merely a very elegant engineering solution to a well-stated 'business problem'.

Yet many 'enterprise blockchain' platforms seemed to begin with the architecture of a public blockchain, and then tweaked it to make it palatable to businesses (eg engineering cumbersome privacy solutions on top to work around the inherently broadcast nature of the public chains). This always felt a bit weird to me.

With Corda, we were fortunate to have been given the time and space by our backers to write down our equivalent of the Bitcoin problem statement, and then to engineer a solution to that problem. Yes - of course, we knew we were in the 'inter-firm business process' space, and we knew the problem we were trying to solve was in some way 'blockchainy' But we did try really quite hard to write down the problem statement [3] and then go forward from there, rather than starting with a pre-existing architecture and then modifying it.

Yes - as Mike says, architecturally it looks a lot like Bitcoin (eg it has an unspent-transaction output data model). But it also has a bunch of other things that, to this day, no other Blockchain has... eg the Flow Framework that allows decentralised inter-firm workflows to be modelled (think temporal.io but without any centralised infrastructure). And, like Mike says, Corda passes data point-to-point and confirms each transaction one at a time - no blocks, no broadcast.

You would not believe HOW MUCH GRIEF we got from the blockchain community for that design in the early days. Yet - several years on, it seems to be working.

[1] I claim that the 'requirement' for which Bitcoin is the solution is: "build me a system of un-censorable digital cash."

[2] https://gendal.me/2014/05/21/bitcoin-mining-the-first-techno...

[3] Our problem statement? "Build me a platform that enables multiple firms to record and manage the lifecycle of the business contracts they have with each other, minimising the need for any new third parties." At least, that's what I thought I was building. Mike might disagree, however... I know he likes the "decentralised database" interpretation of Corda.

Re: AWS and Blockchain

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently attended a trade show, which mostly revolved around emerging ML/AI and other "hot" tech products in the market. So it actually seems that in the logistics line of things like manufacturing / production / etc. there is a place for blockchain, mainly due to the immutability and decentralized distribution properties. What could take a whole week to track down using older methods, takes seconds if all the data…

> So it actually seems that in the logistics line of things like manufacturing / production / etc. there is a place for blockchain, mainly due to the immutability and decentralized distribution properties. What could take a whole week to track down using older methods, takes seconds if all the data is recorded on the blockchain...for example, food production. You want to find out exactly which animal your food comes…

I'm no expert on that, but we had a bunch of senior researchers (NGO) advocate blockchain for that exact task.

I'm not going to argue against people with combined decades and decades of research and development experience in the food logistics community.

Re: AWS and Blockchain

#426
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of applications have that problem though. Take a text editor, it would be improved if edits or saves which are just transactions are stores on a blockchain if the text is being stored and shared synchronously and live between devices. Basically, people have more devices, want to collaborate and add redundancies to important systems which means changes to data (transaction) where the historical sequence of chang…

Blockchains wouldn't fix anything here, though. The last-connected device doesn't necessarily have the canonical file, and the blockchain doesn't have any way to resolve syncing conflicts. Git is a much better choice for transactional history, and it didn't need a blockchain to implement this concept.

Git requires a human to resolve conflicts, a blockchain comes to a majority consensus. But yeah, I would use git and try to automate conflict resolution but it stands to reason blockchain can also solve the problem. If you have 10 people live-editing a text content git will be messy for example but you can come to a consensus on agreeing who made what changes and when between participants (assume p2p connection).

Re: AWS and Blockchain

#427
post #423

Amid all this sudden blockchain skepticism, one question remains prominent in my mind: where were all these skeptics when blockchain enthusiasm was on the rise? Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but you have to wonder if this chorus of I-toldya-so's were genuinely right, or if they are merely rewriting history to boost their own credibility. Blockchain was always experimental. The chance of success on any given project was a…

I don't know if I accept the premise. I've been hearing that "blockchain is a solution in search of a problem" critique as long as I've heard about blockchains. I think that during a hype cycle, the hype is what gets signal boosted so you see a lot more "here's how blockchains are going to solve X" content than you do content repeating for the millionth time that the blockchain doesn't actually solve the problem any better than a database would.

Re: AWS and Blockchain

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's similar to AWS where it got exponentially more valuable as each new service was added But... I have yet to see a service which really adds value . All I've seen so far are: A) collection games, which are not different from collecting Pokémon for real money. B) liquidity PvP, where users open leveraged bets to hunt other market participants' stops/liquidations, so the hunter can reduce their position for cheap,…

> So basically, you guys are re-inventing what tradfi had years ago, just with worthless(?) tokens instead of debt backed assets. Crypto has debt backed primitives as well. You’ve linked one. AAVE is a lending protocol. If you don’t like AAVE, maybe you’re looking for DAI. > but no way to cash out to fiat. This is just a result of US KYC regulation. Like it or not, this isn’t a choice made by crypto. > What's the val…

I do not know much about sophisticated finance. Can you explain the meaning of this phrase, or sketch out an example, or provide links to assist my understanding?

>A kid in a garage can build a financial primitive on top of a “blue chip” and the “blue chip” builder doesn’t have to worry (vis a vis bugs).

I get that a "blue chip" is supposed to be a big brand (at least that's how I hear the term often used?) but what does it mean to "build a financial primitive" and how does it relate to this (presumably third-party) blue chip brand?

Re: AWS and Blockchain

#429
post #423

Amid all this sudden blockchain skepticism, one question remains prominent in my mind: where were all these skeptics when blockchain enthusiasm was on the rise? Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but you have to wonder if this chorus of I-toldya-so's were genuinely right, or if they are merely rewriting history to boost their own credibility. Blockchain was always experimental. The chance of success on any given project was a…

>where were all these skeptics when blockchain enthusiasm was on the rise?

Everywhere? I can't think of a single (or at least memorable) time I've heard blockchain and there wasn't at least someone who was skeptical.

Re: AWS and Blockchain

#430
post #423

Amid all this sudden blockchain skepticism, one question remains prominent in my mind: where were all these skeptics when blockchain enthusiasm was on the rise? Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but you have to wonder if this chorus of I-toldya-so's were genuinely right, or if they are merely rewriting history to boost their own credibility. Blockchain was always experimental. The chance of success on any given project was a…

> where were all these skeptics when blockchain enthusiasm was on the rise?

Literally here, in every single thread to the chagrin of the enthusiasts whose defining identity became "you just don't get it, man". Blockchain stuff, by anyone who didn't have a vested financial interest in it has always been called out for what it is.

Now when the AI hype eventually dies down then you'll have a point.

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