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India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

economictimes.indiatimes.com

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Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its amazing. and unfortunately they will be the last generation that will be able to do it. just like for western countries everything will become unaffordable and the middle class wont be able to buy houses

>middle class wont be able to buy houses It is just depends place there is still places where nimbyism does not run rampart. We we paid like 200k€ from our new house.

>we paid like 200k€ from our new house

In which country is a new house 200k Euros?

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#423
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now India is in a transition period and wages for these kinds of jobs are keeping pace with gains in productivity and that's how you're seeing so many lifting themselves are their families out of poverty. However, if history is anything to go by that will stop pretty soon as the hyper upper class solidifies their hold on wealth, appreciating assets, and means of production, and will start to keep larger and lar…

I'm not sure what the "free market" has to do with it. Capitalism, communism, feudalism, socialism, etc.. always end with the majority of money and power concentrated with the few. It's just human behavior to be selfish.

Yeah, but capitalism has more mechanisms that allow the big to be disrupted by the growing small. And a way for all to rise together through trade.

And, of course, capitalism and socialism work best together.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#424
post #299

So they lifted almost twice my home country's population out of poverty in 15 years? That's impressive. Also, how did India got to have so many people?

Well Europe would have same amount of population if they havent occupied others lands. Europeans talking about high population, human rights and global warming is a joke

It's an interesting question how Europe would look if all the white Americans and Australians and so on had stayed in Europe. But the answer is not obvious.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#425

This is one of the messages that need to be pushed hard - globalization - with it's implications on the "first world" global middle class - has helped make this possible. It's like talking to people opposed to GMO rice. They are fine with an ideological position that GMO foods should be eliminated until you point out the alternative is hundreds of millions dead of starvation.

You mean hundreds of millions of chickens?

So far GMOs are practically irrelevant for feeding humans, assuming a vegan diet there is enough land to feed everyone to avoid starvation. If we assume a reasonable amount of meat consumption there is also enough land for that.

I don't know why GMO advocates throw the "but everyone will starve if you don't buy my proprietary products" slogan around as if that makes them look less manipulative. It is supposed to delude people and prevent them from thinking for themselves.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#426
post #209

This is one of the messages that need to be pushed hard - globalization - with it's implications on the "first world" global middle class - has helped make this possible. It's like talking to people opposed to GMO rice. They are fine with an ideological position that GMO foods should be eliminated until you point out the alternative is hundreds of millions dead of starvation.

It is like cars in a city in a way. You can build larger roads but then more people will start driving.

The road is free, what did you expect?

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what the "free market" has to do with it. Capitalism, communism, feudalism, socialism, etc.. always end with the majority of money and power concentrated with the few. It's just human behavior to be selfish.

I agree with the first part of your point, but this in particular is an emergent phenomena that only happens with large-scale civilizations. So I think some kind of sociological argument makes more sense (I don't know what that would be though).

I've read that there is a certain number of people that we're basically optimized to coexist within a societal structure, and modern civilization passed that a long time ago, and human beings in general just aren't capable of empathy on the scale of modern civilization. And I mean, it makes sense when you think about it. On some abstract level you have to know that even meagre standards of living in western society requires someone, somewhere to be suffering to provide it. $1 for a pound of bananas shipped from across the world before they even have a hint of yellow on them? That shit don't come without a cost, and our $1 sure as hell aint paying it. But we all just kind of don't think those people just to get through the day, because dwelling on the extent of suffering and horror we've wrought upon our fellow man in pursuit of whatever fresh hell the guys over at Oreo have managed to shape into the general form of a cookie would leave us a broken shell of a person and unable to show up for our next shift at the Big Mac factory.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#428
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in a few years India will find focusing on middle class is not enough. There's finite demand for domestic+outsourceable white collar jobs for 1.4B internal market + ~400M English speakers around the world. PRC has 10s of millions of white collar jobs + 100s of millions of manufacturing that pays better than trickle down housesitting, but there's still 100s of millions more stuck in informal economy while both…

There are lots of reasons to think the PRC is about to hit a very rough patch as globalism shrinks.

PRC more insulated against deglobalization than most. Despite trope, PRC is relatively less trade dependant vs OECD/G20 tier countries. It's close to US and JP where internal market is enough to generate growth and development. Meanwhile PRC exports is increasing, especially up value chain in intermediate goods, and among emerging markets. Actual risk of trade disruption with wealthy LIO block is also overstated IMO, first it's ~10% of PRC's GDP. Impact from countries who are serious (so far surprisingly little) about subtantially reducing trade, friendshoring or PRC+1 models are a fraction of that. The really rough patch are US tech blockades that inhibits PRC's ability to upgrade internally, but if overcome, huge boost to development. All of which is to say, PRC exposure to deglobalization is smaller than most think. While reality is PRC so far is inserting herself more and more into global trade despite some efforts to balkanize.

To stay on topic of India (but applies to many countries), PRC / Asian Tiger model of export driven growth model via light industries to generate surplus to upgrade capital is going to be increasingly difficult and expensive. Era of high western consumption (low interest, debt driven etc) and cheap commodities is being tapped out for short/medium term. The TLDR is PRC extracted as much benefit as it can from globalism under relatively ideal conditions while those that did not are going to have a much harder time trying to replicate similar feat. Especially India, because let's be real, west is not going to repeat the PRC "mistake" with India again, especially when India is difficult to geographically contain.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#429
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its amazing. and unfortunately they will be the last generation that will be able to do it. just like for western countries everything will become unaffordable and the middle class wont be able to buy houses

Unlikely because there's basically no NIMBY-ism in India. Any developer can just acquire land, some air rights and plop up apartment complexes. And unlike in the US, apartments in India are designed for family life and aren't just for young / unmarried folks.

This is not true. Large Indian cities have some of the worst planing/zoning/building codes in Asia. Mumbai's FSI (Floor Space Index) is so bad it's almost a meme.

Re: India lifted 415M out of poverty in 15 years, says UN

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first job was in Infosys back in 2001. Coming from a lower-middle class farming family, it was a huge deal. My monthly gross was something my dad (farmer) + mom (school teacher) would earn in an entire year. I remember my dad proudly putting a portrait of NR Narayana Murthy (founder of Infosys) on our wall - it is usually reserved for gods/ancestors or revered sages.

My FIL funded their maid’s kids education. The son got into a decent engineering school and landed a job at TCS. The daughter studied nursing and got a job at a large chain hospital. The kids bought their mom an apartment and a car. Its just amazing to watch - this woman’s mom, grandmom, aunts, uncles were all peasants or did odd trades. Now because of a single generation, the entire family could dream of middle clas…

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