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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#421

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

Don't think lack of Marshall plan is to blame. Russian economy was totally dependent on oil and gas exports since 1970s. Very low oil prices in 1990s contributed to widespread poverty and allowed few oligarchs to scoop all the assets very cheaply. Putin's rise to power coincided, by chance only, with dramatic oil price recovery. So people learned to correlate good life with a strong leader, and poverty - with democracy.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#422

Post by Barrin92 »

SlavikCA wrote: post #70

As the Russian, I'm of the opinion that Gorbachev is traitor. I hate communism, so it's good that he helped us to get rid of that. But why getting rid of communism had to include letting Americans to take reign in many government agencies of Russia? What would be your opinion of US president, if he goes to to retire in Russia? I'm reading some Russian news site, and almost universally Gorbachev is hated by Russians.

perfectly understandable sentiment, the guy debased himself so much he turned up in a literal pizza hut commercial. (https://youtu.be/fgm14D1jHUw). As a rule of thumb, the popularity of any foreign leader in the American press is a pretty good measurement of how eagerly they're willing to drive their own countries into submission.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#423

Post by groby_b »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #369
bhupy wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The transition to a market economy went very well for most of the former Soviet Republics except Russia. https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2022/03/16/the-transiti... A lot of Russia's issues stem from the way the government sold off their state owned corporations, which created artificial monopoly/oligopoly owners overnight — often insiders/cronies to begin with. This can be contrasted with traditional market econ…

Yeltsin is very much to blame. Russia would have transitioned much better if Gorbachev had been the head of the post-USSR Russia instead of Yeltsin. That said, the former Soviet Republics that transitioned well are those that were smaller, already edging their way towards a market economy before the USSR collapse, and received substantial help from (and eventually joined) the EU (Baltics, Hungary, Poland, Czech Rep.,…

You're aware that the "much better" transition of the GDR was still a giant disaster, yes?(https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15487733.2020.1...)

And the GDR still got the best deal of all of the ones you mentioned. But there's massive inequality, massive unemployment. (And as a result, extremism, political fatigue, corruption, etc)

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#424

Post by Spooky23 »

tylersmith wrote: post #374
patentatt wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard variations of this story a lot. Common people and workers received a share of the company they work for, but times were so dire most people sold them to those with money for a pittance. So foreseeable, why was it allowed to happen?

Some people chose to put their assets to work for later and others to sell their assets for cash right now. Why shouldn't people be allowed to make those decisions?

Exactly.

Ditto for the goons. If your main skill is sociopathic violence and physical strength, why not use those your talents to intimidate and exploit the workers for your boss’s benefit?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#425

Post by gpt5 »

somat wrote: post #380
jollybean wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military defeated Japan and was an occupying power. The US had the power to dictate whatever terms. Japan was on it's back. Russia in 1992 was it's own entity. Still a nuclear power. Making it's own decisions. Not only would Russia not have tolerated US intervention, I'm extremely doubtful there could have been such a thing on any terms. As it stands, much of the money used by Oligarchs to buy up Natural Resou…

This is true, the question is, what was the difference between the occupation of japan and germany and the occupation of afganistan, iraq or vietnam. The lesson of the latter is that all it takes is 20 years of low level combat until the occupying country gets tired and leaves. the lesson of the former is that defeated countries can become your greatest allies. As to what leads a nation to choose one path or the othe…

FWIW, Vietnam and Iraq can be considered as US allies (or at least "partners").

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#426

Post by cube2222 »

marcinzm wrote: post #404
bhupy wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The transition to a market economy went very well for most of the former Soviet Republics except Russia. https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2022/03/16/the-transiti... A lot of Russia's issues stem from the way the government sold off their state owned corporations, which created artificial monopoly/oligopoly owners overnight — often insiders/cronies to begin with. This can be contrasted with traditional market econ…

I was in Poland in the late 90s and there were fairly large economic issues with a lack of job projects for many people. This in turn resulted in fairly high rates of crime as it was one of the more guaranteed ways to make a living if you were young. Many other people left the country to make money which in the long turn led to some of the Brexit issues. I literally didn't meet a single person, including myself, who…

It's probably worth adding that this is no longer the case.

Live in Poland, muggings aren't really a thing, and according to the "what worries the world" monthly polls of ipsos[0], poles are the nation that least worries about violence and crime (it was surprising for me to see the effect is that strong), with only 5% worrying about it.

[0]: https://www.ipsos.com/en/what-worries-world-july-2022

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#427

Post by foomatic »

bhupy wrote: post #288
paganel wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War l There was such a plan, at least in the twisted minds of the people behind the Washington Consensus. They were calling it privatization or price liberalization or some other non-sense like that, thing is the common people got the very, very short stick (like my parents, who lost their jobs, their city apartment and who had to resort to literally subsistence agricultu…

The transition to a market economy went very well for most of the former Soviet Republics except Russia. https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2022/03/16/the-transiti... A lot of Russia's issues stem from the way the government sold off their state owned corporations, which created artificial monopoly/oligopoly owners overnight — often insiders/cronies to begin with. This can be contrasted with traditional market econ…

> This can be contrasted with traditional market economies where large corporations start off as small companies and become dominant through innovation, growth, and generally meeting consumer demands.

Or when the govt sells off public assets ...

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#428

Post by t6jvcereio »

negus wrote: post #115
insane_dreamer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a joke. I was in Russia during the Gorby era (and early Yeltsin) and people indeed hated Gorby for his attempt to crack-down on drunkenness by limiting the purchase of vodka.

Have you heard about a single moment in time when people liked the leader of their country?

I'm British and like Boris Johnson.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#429

Post by filoleg »

justsomehnguy wrote: post #414
marcinzm wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in Poland in the late 90s and there were fairly large economic issues with a lack of job projects for many people. This in turn resulted in fairly high rates of crime as it was one of the more guaranteed ways to make a living if you were young. Many other people left the country to make money which in the long turn led to some of the Brexit issues. I literally didn't meet a single person, including myself, who…

> Four point locks and steel doors were the norm for apartments and houses (and that didn't always help). Because whose who installed them of course now knew where are someone with something worth protecting with a steel doors.

It wasn't only for the rich and wealthy (or those who had anything valuable at all) even in the slightest in some of the Eastern European countries at that time.

If you look at houses in Compton and see metal bars on the windows, you don't instantly think "man, they must have lots of expensive stuff to steal". Kind of the same deal here.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#430

Post by Spooky23 »

karaterobot wrote: post #298
DubiousPusher wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening. I suggest you read more about the post war occupation of Japan. The U.S. put its thumb heavily on the scale forcing Japan to accept democratization throughout. Unusual for the U.S. this included pushing economic democracy by suppor…

Thanks for the suggestion about learning about the occupation. To be clear: my statement wasn't that the U.S. did nothing, but that there is no amount they could have done which would force Japan to succeed against their will, or their own ability. There are many examples of the U.S. putting its thumb on the scale, so to speak, in countries where there was not a subsequent, successful democratic transition. The diffe…

The difference is you had MacArthur, who was a better demi-emperor than general.
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