Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case • Hacker News Board

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#421

Post by quantified » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #76

daenz wrote: post #6

Is jury nullification the ultimate trump card? From what little I know about it, it seems that if enough people in a community knew about it, they could 100% control what crimes are punished in that community. On face value, that makes a sort of sense intuitively, but obviously it has to be balanced against crimes that are in principle clearly wrong, despite what a local community believes.

Cops, prosecutors, DAs, judges, mayors and governors all have varying authority to "control what crimes are punished", in addition to who gets punished and the severity of that punishment. In that context, it doesn't seem so strange for juries to have some authority too. All this latitude among different actors in the justice system just shows how having an incredibly vast number of "crimes" on the books guarantees l…

In fact, juries are the only "citizens" (ie "them") in the authorities you note.

Note that a jury of your peers is rarely available. Instead, it's whoever didn't get out of jury service as weeded by competitive interests of the DA and defense. That might make a difference too.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#422

Post by throwawaylinux » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 9:29 PM UTC

addingnumbers wrote: post #389

throwawaylinux wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Winning an election is not a proclamation or any other kind of indication that somebody is an expert in law, governing, or anything else except winning elections. I can't work out how you've made that leap.

Election to office is an indication that voters generally agree with your claims of expertise, and thus are proclaiming you an expert. Voters who want someone in office who is not an expert at governing vote for someone who doesn't claim to be an expert.

It's no such thing.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#423

Post by quantified » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

BowBun wrote: post #304

alistairSH wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But society wants selective enforcement. Speeding laws are good when the stop that guy from endangering my kids. Or when they generate revenue from tourists. Those same laws are awful when they inconvenience me.

Maybe I'm just being contrarian to your comment, but I've always thought the US and other countries are silly for not automating basic traffic enforcement. Red light cameras should effectively catch 95%+ of people who blow through them. Speeding cameras (that are actually on, looking at you NYC) that are super visible are a known deterrent to speeding in Europe. Even parking - in some modern garages they have sensors…

Red light cameras are added along with shortening the yellow lights. More ticket revenue harvested, and more rear-ending from stopping more quickly when the light turned yellow.

It's the same reason we veered away from using the metric system at the gas pump: changing things went along with outright gouging. Too many venal actors in the American system.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#424

Post by quantified » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 9:31 PM UTC

parkingrift wrote: post #232

daenz wrote: post #6

Is jury nullification the ultimate trump card? From what little I know about it, it seems that if enough people in a community knew about it, they could 100% control what crimes are punished in that community. On face value, that makes a sort of sense intuitively, but obviously it has to be balanced against crimes that are in principle clearly wrong, despite what a local community believes.

If you think jury nullification is a potential problem just wait until you hear that district attorneys have almost absolute authority to decide what crimes are punished. One person can unilaterally dictate that petty theft is no longer a crime, for example. In that lens I don’t believe jury nullification is much of a problem.

To be fair, they tend to only nullify the crimes of the wealthy and well-connected.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#425

Post by quantified » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

carlivar wrote: post #292

whimsicalism wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One person, who is typically elected. And that's if federal authorities decide to not get involved.

Or subject to recall. Which is what just happened to San Francisco DA Chesa Boudin.

After the cops decided not to arrest, then blame Boudin for not prosecuting. Cops just hanging out watching the crimes.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#426

Post by celticninja » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 10:04 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #241

mcv wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honesly I have no idea how you'd define what is a "better" outcome. I think less blatant racism or classism in the verdicts would be better. In the US there's no shortage of examples of poor people of colour getting far more severe punishments for crimes for which rich white people get minor punishment or barely a slap on the wrist.

Europe is also super racist, they just don't have sizable black populations. Anecdotally, I have witnessed Europeans saying much more casually racist things than coastal Americans.

Europe is nowhere near as homogeneous as the USA. People from New York speak the same language (in general) as those from California and subscribe to the same cultural ethos (to a degrees). The difference between France and Lithuania in terms of Language is huge, and similarly so is their cultural heritage.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#427

Post by pdonis » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 10:14 PM UTC

washbrain wrote: post #420

pdonis wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we've improved as a species This is arguing in a circle. It's only an "improvement" for someone who already agrees with your ethical and moral claim.

Disagree, cultural norms are not just formless things that can come and go entirely without context. We can never have a discussion about the morality of slavery without the historical context.

You aren't disagreeing with me, you're agreeing with me. You're saying that ethical and moral claims are context dependent, not absolute. Such claims include claims that, for example, abolishing slavery or lynching is an "improvement". Which is exactly my point.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#428

Post by whimsicalism » Tue, Aug 09, 2022, 11:49 PM UTC

quantified wrote: post #425

carlivar wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or subject to recall. Which is what just happened to San Francisco DA Chesa Boudin.

After the cops decided not to arrest, then blame Boudin for not prosecuting. Cops just hanging out watching the crimes.

Let's not turn it into a whole Boudin debate. He was recalled, which indicates some level of voter discontent with how he operated. I personally voted against recall, but it is what it is.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#429

Post by yuliyp » Wed, Aug 10, 2022, 2:08 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #186

mattkrause wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, not really. Rule 606 of the Federal Rules of Evidence prohibits a juror from testifying “about any statement made or incident that occurred during the jury’s deliberations; the effect of anything on that juror’s or another juror’s vote; or any juror’s mental processes concerning the verdict or indictment.” [0] Without testimony, how would you make the case for perjury? You can’t force the juror to incriminate the…

> Without testimony, how would you make the case for perjury? You’re almost certainly going to be asked about your ability to make a decision on the basis of the law, and solely the law, during voir dire . If you say yes and then go on to nullify, you perjured yourself.

"nullifying" means voting "not guilty". There's no evidence to prove that the juror did not just distrust all of the evidence presented, or feel that it didn't rise to the threshold of beyond a reasonable doubt.

Re: Man arrested for promoting jury nullification wins federal case

#430

Post by CrazyPyroLinux » Wed, Aug 10, 2022, 2:52 AM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #339

CrazyPyroLinux wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of our greatest failures as a species is the hubris of _thinking_ that we can "architect a society"

The organization of society is not outside our control. We've been architecting society for 1000s of years based on what has worked and what hasn't in years past. We aren't just along for the ride although that is a convenient excuse to do nothing and make no effort.

I wasn't necessarily suggesting to "do nothing and make no effort" - That's a strawman and false dichotomy. Sure, we can generally try to do more of what works and less of what doesn't. But usually the type of people who want to "architect society" end up being the worst type of "rules for thee but not for me" tyrants.