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Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

chess24.com

421–430 of 461 posts

Re: Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

#421

Time to change the format. It's understandable you don't want to spend your whole career preparing for these long matches all the time. For the challenger it's 6 months of preparing, but for Carlsen it would've been his 6th time of preparing for this in a few years. They have also become less entertaining. 12 matches is long (edit, 14 now), but no one dares to take any risks. Caruana was just defensive and all games…

> Time to change the format

The format has been changing way too often, if anything.

> 12 matches is long (edit, 14 now), but no one dares to take any risks.

Not really: 12 or even 14 games is short, which is exactly why players aren't particularly willing to take risks - short format makes it hard to catch up should they fall behind. The format used to be 24 games in Kasparov times, and some WC matches were decided by the "first to X wins" rule, which could last very long, given that draws wouldn't push things forward (and for example Alekhine beated Capablanca after 34 games).

> And against Nepo it was a steamroll, understandably meeting him again isn't that exciting.

It wasn't such a steamroll, the score doesn't tell a full story. Nepo's play quality was excellent and he arguably had more winning chances throughout the first half of the match. His first loss was in the longest WC game ever played (136 moves, and theoretically drawish almost until the very end when Nepo finally slipped). He collapsed psychologically right after, starting to make errors that - in his own words - were "simple things you would never overlook in a blitz game".

In part due to that gruelling, exhausting loss, for sure, but some have theorized he may also have folded due to realizing how many good chances he had missed before that.

GM Sam Shankland (US champion of 2018, for those not up to date with the who-is-who of chess world) went as far as to say Ian was two different players in the match: Nepo A and Nepo B.

Subverting people's expectations, Nepo won the Candidates now so convincingly (some suspected he might not recover, and certainly not to such an extent) that I see no reason why one would expect a landslide Carlsen's victory in the upcoming match.

Especially since there's an enormous difference between having NEVER played a WC match (which was Ian's situation the last time), and having already played one.

To quote Kramnik reminiscing on his first WC match: "it was still a very unfamiliar situation, like playing all your life for Lokomotiv and then coming out to play for Real Madrid in the final of the Champions League. Of course, you have to get used to the new situation, kick the ball a couple of times so they don't laugh at you."

> Even Carlsen didn't like the format

Yeah, well - he didn't like it, isn't that a bummer :) But come on, it's not like Carlsen has no say in the matter of the format, especially now that he already is a 5x world champion. He could have negotiated a different one with FIDE - or at least try. Obviously it's too late for that once the challenger has already been revealed, the time for that was before the cycle started. The format isn't set in stone though, far from it, and the #1 player, the reigning WC, has a lot of weight to throw around.

Carlsen may have not liked the format from an objective point of view, but the format was certainly very convenient for him. He excels in rapid chess, so if his winning chances are, say, around 80% in the classical portion of the match, they probably reach something like 95% once it comes to rapid tiebreaks. And the shorter the format, the larger the likelihood of getting to the tiebreaks.

> I wonder how this will affect the status of the title, when it's in practice is now a title-fight between the second best players.

This isn't something new. Kasparov was still the world's #1 for years after he lost the title to Kramnik. (He had actually hoped for a rematch, but they couldn't work the conditions out, and since age was catching up with him, he finally retired.)

Re: Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't he still the Chairman of the Board of Russian Railways, a state-owned company?

According to their website, he left that board in 2020. https://ar2020.rzd.ru/en/corporate-governance/board-director...

So, he worked for the Russian state until 2020, then? Or until March 2022, when he resigned as head of Skolkovo?

As you can see, he was sticking around until the war actually started. Did he precipitate the war by lending his name and skills to Putin? IMO, definitely yes.

Should he resign from FIDE? Russians do not resign, they cling to positions of power indefinitely.

Should FIDE fire him? Definitely yes, its rules are made for respectable gentlemen.

Re: Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

#423
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Magnus destroyed Nepo in the previous match, I don't see a reason why Nepo would be favorite this time. I think his chess and mental fortitude in general is inferior to Magnus. Personally I am not interested in this championship match at all.

Magnus didn't destroy Nepo, he was the first to win a game. At the level of chess in the first 6 games catching up after a loss is difficult, and Ian likely decided not to fight too hard. Also he said he overprepared for the match and was to burned out. A fresh match with a new score could be very interesting.

7.5 - 3.5 is pretty much definition of total destruction. Bouncing back from defeat is part of the game (See Carlsen Karjakin match).

Re: Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

#424
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chess' centre of gravity is increasingly online centred now. Carlson himself has a lot to do with it. So do other charismatic super GMs like Nakamura. A light hearted, unplanned and unadvertised naka-carlsen bullet match can attract a lot of viewers. They both stream, and lots of other chess streamers will switch to watching and doing commentary when these matches happen. They'll play silly openings like the double b…

> I feel like Fide should focus more on rapid, and get more involved in the online scene. Maybe this is the opportunity. This cheapens the tradition and the prestige of the discipline. Chess has attained a revered status over the years. It's not perceived as a game like any other. That's why it's able to attract luxury sponsors, if nothing else. Shifting the focus onto the "double bong cloud drunk banter blitz" terri…

I didn't say anything about removing classical. It obviously has a place.

As for prestige and tradition... we shall see, I suppose. Prestige follows the prestigious. We are now entering terrify, with Magnus at least, where the best players don't want to compete in traditional matches and the chess watching public doesn't want to follow it anyway.

If you think FIDE involvement in rapid/online cheapens chess... then you'll eventually be in a world that has tradition & prestige on one side and popularity and the best players in the other.

Re: Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

#425

It might be worth mentioning a famous abdication which caused a lot of consternation, albeit in another game. I love this story but may have gotten some details wrong. Marion Tinsley was world checkers champion from 1955-1958, then took a break, then again from 1975-1991, when he resigned in protest (at age 64 ). He was utterly dominant; indeed it is hard to think of a competitor in all of history more dominant over…

Chinook was obviously playing the long con. Knowing Tinsley's weakness was his humanity, so it continued to draw until his frail human body succumbed to the forces of nature, thus winning once and for all.

Skynet doesn't have to do anything, it just needs to be patient.

...and self-replicating so it ensures its own survival long term of course, but that's a problem yet to be solved.

Re: Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

#426
post #295
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nepo at candidates was in my opinion favored to beat magnus...he dominated the candidates harder than anyone else has in the history of the candidate matches - and it was not an easy pool of candidates, either. What about Fischer? The format was a little different then, but here was his route to the Championship. 1. Won the Interzonal tournament 18.5/23 (+15-1=7). The top 8 from the Interzonal then played a knockou…

You make a very strong argument, but if you take fischers score vs the top 8 in the interzonal and double it, fischer would've had 10/14 to nepos 9.5/14, which given it was just 1 game vs the top 8 and given the ELO spread was vastly more spread than current candidates games(easily fischer had 100+ more ELO than the other top 7 opponents) I think it's fair to say you could say nepo was more dominant when compared to…

I think your argument here actually favours Fischer's dominance. ELO metrics don't matter as were talking about the best players of the respective eras

Re: Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

#427

Time to change the format. It's understandable you don't want to spend your whole career preparing for these long matches all the time. For the challenger it's 6 months of preparing, but for Carlsen it would've been his 6th time of preparing for this in a few years. They have also become less entertaining. 12 matches is long (edit, 14 now), but no one dares to take any risks. Caruana was just defensive and all games…

> They have also become less entertaining. The classical World Championship matches have never been entertaining to watch live. In fact they used to take 2 days for one game. > No one dares to take any risks. Caruana was just defensive and all games ended in a draw. Chess, in theory, with absolutely perfect play, is a draw. It's not a game of "risk" in classical time format. You can take risks in blitz and rapid, but…

> Chess, in theory, with absolutely perfect play, is a draw.

Even the best human players are nowhere near perfect play.

Chess engines have proven that even players that are 1000 Elo stronger than the best players alive today can lose. Just look at how each new version of Stockfish absolutely trounces the previous version.

Stockfish 7, released 6 years ago, is nearly 500 Elo weaker than the newest version, Stockfish 15.[0] That's the difference between Carlsen and the weakest grandmasters.

0. https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/64992190/179047597...

Re: Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

#428
post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like Fide should focus more on rapid, and get more involved in the online scene. Maybe this is the opportunity. This cheapens the tradition and the prestige of the discipline. Chess has attained a revered status over the years. It's not perceived as a game like any other. That's why it's able to attract luxury sponsors, if nothing else. Shifting the focus onto the "double bong cloud drunk banter blitz" terri…

I didn't say anything about removing classical. It obviously has a place. As for prestige and tradition... we shall see, I suppose. Prestige follows the prestigious. We are now entering terrify, with Magnus at least, where the best players don't want to compete in traditional matches and the chess watching public doesn't want to follow it anyway. If you think FIDE involvement in rapid/online cheapens chess... then yo…

> We are now entering terrify, with Magnus at least, where the best players don't want to compete in traditional matches

[Citation needed] :) Says who? What exactly indicates the best players "don't want to compete in traditional matches"? What implies that Magnus forfeiting his title (having collected five) is a result of such general trend?

Either it's "best players", or only Magnus, in this specific situation, having already built a remarkable legacy.

> and the chess watching public doesn't want to follow it anyway.

[Citation needed] again : ) Because I'm not sure if the chess watching public KNOWS that it "doesn't want to follow" traditional matches. Regarding the previous world championship match:

"Total viewership for the event exceeded 12.6 million hours watched with a record peak streaming viewership for chess of 613,000 concurrent viewers making the FIDE World Championship in Dubai one of the most watched events in streaming globally."

https://kommunikasjon.ntb.no/announcement?publisherId=168238...

> In total, viewers of the World Championship spent more than 12.6M hours on broadcasts, which is twice as much as at the World Championship 2018. The average audience of the World Championship 2021 was 239.7K viewers, which is almost 2.5 times more than at the previous iteration of the tournament

https://escharts.com/news/fide-world-chess-championship-2021...

Guess the chess watching public didn't get that memo. Viewership can grow substantially, despite this era of shortening attention spans. I can't see a problem in need of fixing here, much less a trend going in the opposite direction that these numbers show.

> If you think FIDE involvement in rapid/online cheapens chess...

Involvement in and of itself, no. It has its place. And they're involved already. There are World Rapid and World Blitz championships. But these titles don't hold the same value as "the" World championship. Ask Abdusattorov ("who"? Exactly :)) if he wouldn't prefer to be the classic world champion.

What I'm saying is that this involvement should be kept in proportion, and pushing towards rapid/online, with the goal of attracting more publicity (which is already larger than ever before, the internet takes care of itself without the need for any official blessing), steers towards diminishing returns, while the long-term costs would tend to increase.

Re: Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

#429
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not saying Stockfish is going to solve it. I am saying it will not lose from the initial position. In other words my hypothesis is that we already have a soft solution to chess available. I can't prove it but I can proceed accordingly in practice (in opening preparation or correspondence games for example) and no one will prove me wrong or exploit it.

Stockfish lost a handful of games against Leela from starting positions that were a couple of moves into mainstream openings. I don't think it's at at all unlikely that there's a route that beats it.

Can you provide an example of such a game? I am following computer chess pretty closely and it's just all draws if we start from mainstream openings. By mainstream I mean things that are considered solid by today top players and engines. Some of the traditional mainstream openings turned out to be problematic (King's Indian for example). I am talking about recent Stockfish (the one with NNs) as the traditional version had pretty serious problems in certain positions and needed an extensive opening book to steer it out of trouble.

Re: Magnus Carlsen to give up World Championship title

#430
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you might say something like that for e.g. competitive coding or leetcode.

>>competitive coding or leetcode Absolutely yes. There is a big difference between inventing solutions to novel problems, and being 75,386th person to solve a problem on a website. The latter just makes you a sophisticated newspaper daily puzzle solver.

> There is a big difference between inventing solutions to novel problems,

how many programmers/software developers can claim to inventing solutions to novel problems though? 0.01%? less?

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