Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

geekwire.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

421–430 of 462 posts

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#421

Post by tdhoot »

jl2718 wrote: post #214

Or they are pushing more compensation into cash because cash is a lot cheaper for them than equity. What I mean by that is that they have almost unlimited borrowing capacity at near-zero rates, versus a fixed amount of equity, and as long as the equity keeps growing, the cash pool grows with it. If the employees want to then purchase the equity, then that is upward pressure on the price, versus downward pressure on t…

In theory it's all fungible and doesn't work this way. If it did, they would just take out a loan and buyback their stock and skip all the extra steps.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#422

Post by jedberg »

hintymad wrote: post #316
lhorie wrote: post #145

Judging from what an insider in the HR org told me, we're going to be hearing a lot of stories like this going forward. Apparently, Amazon scale is so large and their attrition rates are so bad that in some markets, every potentially qualified candidate has already applied and failed an interview, or previously worked at Amazon and quit. As the adage goes, necessity is the mother of invention and Amazon seems to be a…

If it's just lowering equity payout, then it's not Netflix's structure. Netflix really tries to make its pay structure fair to its employees by implementing the following policies: 1. They give cash that is generally 20% higher than average market price. 2. If you convert your cash into options, you don't pay the income tax for the forfeited cash. It's your choice on how much cash you'd like to convert. And of course…

> The strike price is the the price of stock of that month (not sure if it's average of the month or at the time of vest).

It was on the day of vesting (1st business day of the month) at the close that day. So we used to root for a huge single day drop on the first trading day of the month (mostly jokingly).

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#423

Post by jedberg »

yogenpro wrote: post #404
hintymad wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's just lowering equity payout, then it's not Netflix's structure. Netflix really tries to make its pay structure fair to its employees by implementing the following policies: 1. They give cash that is generally 20% higher than average market price. 2. If you convert your cash into options, you don't pay the income tax for the forfeited cash. It's your choice on how much cash you'd like to convert. And of course…

> 3. ... if you forfeit $1 of income and the strike price of options is $1, ... Does this example need another prerequisite "and the current price of NFLX is $1"? Because if the example runs with NFLX at, say $10, then each option already have an intrinsic value of $9. And combined with #5, those options look like at-the-money call options that expire in 10 years. But in this case it won't make any sense to set the o…

> and combined with #5, those options look like at-the-money call options that expire in 10 years.

Correct.

> But in this case it won't make any sense to set the option price (the amount of income to forfeit for each option) according to either strike price or stock price -- shouldn't it be set according to the difference between the two?

The difference is always $0. The option strike is the same as the current price. The option price is 40% of the current stock price/strike price.

Let's say you make $180K. You opt to put 50% into stock. So each month you will buy $7500 worth of options. On month one, the stock price is $750. The option discount is 60%, so you get your options at $300 each. You buy 25 options at a $750 strike.

So now you're down $7500. But if the stock goes up 40% to $1050, you've broken even. If you exercise your option you buy the shares at $750, sell it at $1050, and make $300 a share.

But the real advantage comes if the stock goes up say 50%. Now you can make a profit of $375 a share, so you just made a 25% gain on your initial investment. It takes a while to break even, but once you do, you have extreme leverage.

People who went stock heavy usually made more from the options than salary, at least in the 2010s.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#424

Post by QuarterReptile »

xdennis wrote: post #317
strikelaserclaw wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this the dude who just bought a 500mm yacht?

Is that the size of the main gun?

That would be just slightly larger than the largest (modern) naval gun ever fielded (on the Yamato in WW2).

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#425

Post by banana-19 »

fhrow4484 wrote: post #306
bagels wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if the recruiter says $500k in RSU, and the stock stays flat for 4 years, the grant is actually only for $425k (or less with compounding)? Or, are you saying, they justify small grants by telling you the stock will grow?

Let's say you're applying for a position where usual FAANG TC is 300k. Then Amazon recruiter wants to "match" that, so 300 * 4=1200k over 4 years. Base pay is maxed at 160 (until today's announcement), so 1200k-(160 * 4) = 560k to come up with with stocks and cash bonus. Let's say Amazon 30 day moving average share price during negotiation is $1200 a share So now recruiter must make math such that: - TC stays relativ…

In my case they built in a back loaded effective salary increase rather than being perfectly flat. Cost of living perhaps? E.g. your example becomes TC (285, 292, 305, 318) or something similar.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#426

Post by banana-19 »

dymk wrote: post #39
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #2

We had an office near an Amazon office. I interviewed a lot of people trying to leave Amazon. I don’t ask candidate’s compensation, but a lot of them volunteered it anyway. I was always surprised at how effectively low their comp was in the first few years due to the vesting schedule. The internet is adamant that everyone with FAANG jobs is rolling in TC, but there are a lot of people out there who are getting into F…

When the average tenure is 1.8 years, it certainly is working. That's nearly 50% of their tenure resulting in less than 20% of their equity vesting. The way Amazon does vesting is a scam for any engineer willing to work there, IMO. Big shiny number that they can dangle in front of engineers, and everybody thinks "Oh, sure I can do 4 years for that..."

For SDEs median is closer to 2.2. But that just talks about those that are still there though. It doesn't show when those that are not quit.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#427

Post by kamaal »

lhorie wrote: post #418
kidfiji wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a “boomerang promotion?” I’ve never heard of the term

Basically, it's supposed to describe this: - Bob works at Amazon as a SDE 2 - Bob finds getting promoted to SDE 3 is hard (despite being qualified) because the bar for promotion is too nitpicky/convoluted/whatever - Bob quits and goes to work somewhere else - Bob then applies for a job at Amazon again, but for a SDE 3 role. He lands the job, effectively getting a promotion in a really roundabout way. The premise is t…

In all my years working in this industry I've seen very no boomerang promotions. Definitely not in the same team. In the same team of course, if you leave your current and future positions are taken by others, there is little logic for anyone to bring you in at a higher level.

Plus most shops will filter you out a resume screening level itself.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#428

Post by kamaal »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #2

We had an office near an Amazon office. I interviewed a lot of people trying to leave Amazon. I don’t ask candidate’s compensation, but a lot of them volunteered it anyway. I was always surprised at how effectively low their comp was in the first few years due to the vesting schedule. The internet is adamant that everyone with FAANG jobs is rolling in TC, but there are a lot of people out there who are getting into F…

>>lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels.

A lot of FAANG down level you while hiring, that way they ensure you are basically at the same level even after a promotion(the next 4 - 5) years. Mandatory firing quotas, brutal performance standards(stack ranking included) and delayed vesting schedules effectively mean most won't make it to the big paydays.

OTOH, those who are there for a few years, have survived through years of political darwinism inside the company have to an extent figured out the 'secret sauce', and are gradually climbing their way up.

In these set ups, attrition is a feature for the long term employees, people who leave basically free up spaces in the ladder for others to take. No matter where you go you write software, so it doesn't really make much difference where you work at. On the other hand positions in the hierarchy no matter what the company are effectively pay grades and one must actively work on grabbing promotions.

If you observe carefully job hoppers don't really make much in life. Quitting saps energy due to context switching, by the time you arrive at a good pay day you have already hopped to the next company. For the people who quit often, good days are always in the future. And real cheddar lies in grabbing assets and looking after your health as you age. Both demand relative stability to raise debt and spend time working on your body.

That being the case the real winners are people who are doing long terms at companies, investing time learning political, investment and fitness skills.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#429

Post by callalex »

ShockedUnicorn wrote: post #104
_dain_ wrote: post #31

US tech salary discussions always throw around incomprehensibly large numbers and complain that they are "small"

My first tech job I made ~8k$ a year, due to being under 25 years old. My second job as a programmer was 33k$ a year, about 40% more than a cleaner in my city. It just feels ridiculous that US salary can be 10x this, when costs of living are very similar. Apartments in my city in Sweden is about 200k$, houses 500k$.

In the bay are an apartment where your property and safety are at risk can start at $400k, and a 3 bedroom house would be upwards of $1.5m.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#430

Post by lhorie »

kamaal wrote: post #427
lhorie wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, it's supposed to describe this: - Bob works at Amazon as a SDE 2 - Bob finds getting promoted to SDE 3 is hard (despite being qualified) because the bar for promotion is too nitpicky/convoluted/whatever - Bob quits and goes to work somewhere else - Bob then applies for a job at Amazon again, but for a SDE 3 role. He lands the job, effectively getting a promotion in a really roundabout way. The premise is t…

In all my years working in this industry I've seen very no boomerang promotions. Definitely not in the same team. In the same team of course, if you leave your current and future positions are taken by others, there is little logic for anyone to bring you in at a higher level. Plus most shops will filter you out a resume screening level itself.

There was actually a fairly high profile boomerang in the news last year - and at Amazon, no less - Sukumar Rathnam went from engineering manager at Amazon to CTO at Uber to VP of e-commerce services at Amazon, all in the span of less than two years.
Post reply on HN