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App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

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Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#421

Post by Apocryphon »

mullingitover wrote: post #420
tragictrash wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. You obviously never really developed anything using both xcode, the automated xcode build tooling, or an iPhone before.

I operated a whole bespoke enterprise build farm for iOS that did hundreds of headless xcode builds per day, plus I wired up automated app re-signing with a signing identity repository. It's a pain because Apple isn't super helpful if you're not on the straight and narrow path, but it's not rocket surgery. Just hooking up some actions to automate a build and install when 'phone plugged in' event is detected isn't tha…

Apple has been gradually improving its toolchain. Finally their Buddybuild acquisition is yielding results.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#422

Post by musicale »

> New rules could require them both to allow app side-loading — installing apps from non-sanctioned marketplaces — and alternative payment processing systems. Apple and Google have argued vehemently against the bill.

Imagine if Google were forced to allow sideloading on Android. then other companies (like Amazon) could offer their own App Stores; Google Play's profits would tank, and they'd no longer be able to charge 30% platform fees. Right? ;-)

Oh, wait...

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#423

Post by zepto »

ok_dad wrote: post #417
zepto wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? There are plenty of other options if you want to develop software for you own use.

Not for on my iPhone! I can't compile on Linux and publish software onto an iPhone without major trickery.

You have to be the least informed hacker in the world if you bought an thinking you could do that.

There are plenty of alternatives to the iPhone if you want to compile on Linux.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#426

Post by zepto »

sgjohnson wrote: post #419
zepto wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world we live in is one where nobody is forced to buy an Apple product. If you don’t like what Apple does, don’t buy their products.

I don’t like what they do, but I also like their products. Now what?

It’s up to you. Buy them if you want them. Don’t if you don’t.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#427

Post by zepto »

flutas wrote: post #414
zepto wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like you said, there's always going to be security issues and using them as the scapegoat for "why" this can't happen is a bad argument. No it isn’t. If you agree that there are always going to be security issues, then there is no reason why customers shouldn’t be able to choose a product where human moderation is used to mitigate them. You haven’t made any case as to why customers should be denied this option.

>If you agree that there are always going to be security issues, then there is no reason why customers shouldn’t be able to choose a product where human moderation is used to mitigate them. First of all, that is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard. A iMessage can install a virus, but you don't see people asking for human moderation of all of their messages on the remote chance that one message contains a virus…

> A iMessage can install a virus, but you don't see people asking for human moderation of all of their messages on the remote chance that one message contains a virus.

You keep making this silly silly argument.

A text message is not like a software application.

If you really thing the two are comparable, you honestly don’t know anything about computer technology.

You also clearly don’t understand security if you think a platform can be free of security flaws.

As for things slipping through app review. Obviously that happens. That proves that the platform isn’t secure, and that App review isn’t perfect.

If app review wasn’t there, even more things would ‘slip through’. What matters is not how many things slip through, but how many are stopped.

The platform security isn’t perfect, and nor is app review. Together they are much better than one would be alone. It isn’t hard to understand this if you want to.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#428

Post by flutas »

zepto wrote: post #427
flutas wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you agree that there are always going to be security issues, then there is no reason why customers shouldn’t be able to choose a product where human moderation is used to mitigate them. First of all, that is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard. A iMessage can install a virus, but you don't see people asking for human moderation of all of their messages on the remote chance that one message contains a virus…

> A iMessage can install a virus, but you don't see people asking for human moderation of all of their messages on the remote chance that one message contains a virus. You keep making this silly silly argument. A text message is not like a software application. If you really thing the two are comparable, you honestly don’t know anything about computer technology. You also clearly don’t understand security if you thin…

> You keep making this silly silly argument.

> A text message is not like a software application.

> If you really thing the two are comparable, you honestly don’t know anything about computer technology.

Ya know, I'm not going to attack you like you seem so set on doing to me. But for reference, I'm a lead SWE working on mobile devices.

As for how a text is comparable. All I'm saying is you claim the platform would be vulnerable with sideload functionality, and what I'm saying is the platform is already vulnerable to the attacks you think this would open the door to. Letting users sideload apps won't make it any more or less vulnerable.

> The platform security isn’t perfect, and nor is app review. Together they are much better than one would be alone. It isn’t hard to understand this if you want to.

I'll say it again, but louder for those in the back. The security is built in to the platform, not app review. If the security was only through the appstore you would see hundreds of viruses in the store a day, controlled by a server side flag. Just like what Uber did to run code differently if the app was being used by reviewers. [1] Why do you think apps need permission to access your sensitive data? That's not the app politely asking while having the ability to get it anyway, that's the _platform_ security.

Now, mind commenting on the part you've ignored twice now? I'll quote it, verbatim, again for you.

"What's the difference between running an app ad-hoc right now (via XCode) vs allowing a user to download and install any app they want. The answer is, there isn't any, except for artificial limitations put in place by apple."

How is the platform so vulnerable and insecure currently? You claim this functionality will cause viruses and adware to run rampant, yet people can do this exact thing right now, with artificial limits (3 max, 7 days max) put in place by apple.

[1]: https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/23/15399438/apple-uber-app-s...

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#429

Post by dv35z »

ok_dad wrote: post #417
zepto wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? There are plenty of other options if you want to develop software for you own use.

Not for on my iPhone! I can't compile on Linux and publish software onto an iPhone without major trickery.

I have the vision of hanging at the coffee shop, jamming to headphones, pop open the iPad, open the iCloud synced IntelliJ project I was working on my MacBook Pro in the morning. To those who would say, but that's not what an iPad is for - consider this thought: The iPad is a pretty good expression device. You can draw with the pencil in Good Notes. You can paint with your fingers in Procreate. You can make music with Garage Band. With the iPad keyboard, and Obsidian.app, it's a serious writing tool. So with all of these ways to express my passion, what I'd love to do is use the iPad to express my passion to code. Using my kindergarten brain, It looks like a computer that a person could use to code.

Apple seems to be investing in iPad software development capabilities - Swift Playground app. This is exciting - perhaps it will be the "iMovie" of Xcode...

An aside: When someone finally comes up with an eInk laptop, we developers in Austin can chill at patio bars and enjoy the sun.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#430

Post by zepto »

flutas wrote: post #428
zepto wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A iMessage can install a virus, but you don't see people asking for human moderation of all of their messages on the remote chance that one message contains a virus. You keep making this silly silly argument. A text message is not like a software application. If you really thing the two are comparable, you honestly don’t know anything about computer technology. You also clearly don’t understand security if you thin…

> You keep making this silly silly argument. > A text message is not like a software application. > If you really thing the two are comparable, you honestly don’t know anything about computer technology. Ya know, I'm not going to attack you like you seem so set on doing to me. But for reference, I'm a lead SWE working on mobile devices. As for how a text is comparable. All I'm saying is you claim the platform would b…

> Ya know, I'm not going to attack you like you seem so set on doing to me. But for reference, I'm a lead SWE working on mobile devices.

Then I assume you understand the difference between text and an executable and they they pose very different security risks.

If so, then we have to assume you are simply arguing in bad faith by pretending they are analogous.

> I'll say it again, but louder for those in the back. The security is built in to the platform, not app review.

This statement is completely false. Security is in both. You surely know that.

> If the security was only through the appstore you would see hundreds of viruses in the store a day, controlled by a server side flag.

No, because they could still be removed after detection.

In any case, this is a dishonest argument. Nobody is claiming that it’s only in the App Store. The claim is that the App Store is a way to catch issues that the platform security alone cannot.

Again, you clearly are aware of this.

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