Without parental leave I might be dead • Hacker News Board

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#421

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

bluesummers5651 wrote: post #375

lotsofpulp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. It is an answer. For example, my cousin in England was able to spend a year breastfeeding her daughters without having to go through the arduous process of pumping. Their family is alive and well, and so is the UK.

Not disagreeing with the point of this comment, but just as an aside, pumping is something that even mothers who are on leave do. Speaking from personal experience as the dad, I was able to feed the baby pumped milk for some of the many daily feedings instead of my wife doing the breastfeeding, which let her get a few extra minutes/hours of sleep when the baby needed to be fed. Both of us were on parental leave durin…

Sure, but pumping once or every other feed is markedly different than pumping multiple times in a row over a solid 9 or 10 hour block of time.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#422

Post by DavidVoid » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

jseban wrote: post #403

DavidVoid wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some European countries require the parental leave to be shared to some degree. Here in Sweden each parent gets 90 days of parental leave each, and the remaining 300 days can be split in whatever way the parents choose. You also don't have to take all the parental leave at once, you can spread it out over a few years (and 96 of the days can even be saved until the child is between 4 and 12 years old if you want).

Yeah which doesn't make any sense, how can you motivate to have two adults full time only to care for your own children. Sure I agree with the parent that "it's nice" but come on, it's extremely privileged. And it's commonly abused in Sweden to take several month long vacations abroad with the whole family, which literally nobody else can do, unless you have children. It's a privilege not available to single people a…

Yes, it is a privilege that won't be available to me (since I don't plan on having any kids), but I believe these benefits are good for the children, which is ultimately good for society.

And sure, as a non-parent I can't take a multi-month long vacation every year, but even as a recent graduate I get 25 paid vacation days per year (5 of which can be saved for a few years). So long vacations aren't a pipe dream for non-parents.

And with the way the economy currently works and the gradually increasing life expectancy, increasing the birth rate is a good thing, and generous parental benefits are a way to encourage that. I personally think it would be best if society/the economy wasn't dependant on an increasing population, but that's a separate conversation.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#423

Post by freeflight » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #32

speedgoose wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. There's no clear solutions Your argument makes me think about this satiric article : https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-na... I live in a country where it's exactly what we do, and it's fine. I took a 7 months paid parental leave as a dad recently and my company congratulated me for the birth.

Again, saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer. That's like saying why are incomes in Mexico so much lower than the US? Just do what the US does. In fact, Mexico has 12 weeks. And Greece has 40. I'd rather be a parent in the US than Greece or Mexico. Policies don't exist in a vacuum.

> Again, saying "other countries do it" isn't really an answer.

It very much is part of the answer as it gives successful examples and as such proof how it's very much realistic to achieve, if effort was actually put into it.

Which is a much more constructive PoV than acting like even American problems are so exceptional that all of them need equally exceptional and unique solutions that no other country before could have figured out.

> Policies don't exist in a vacuum.

Indeed, that's why between Greece, Mexico and the US I would easily chose Greece, which has nearly half of the infant mortality rate of the US [0].

[0] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.DYN.MORT

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#424

Post by jseban » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

jokethrowaway wrote: post #377

KaiserPro wrote: post #28

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

There is nothing wrong with parental leave, but I don't see a compelling reason to have it be mandated by law. If company wants to offer it, good for them. It may help retaining senior employees who reached the phase in their life when they want to have children. I don't think we should incentivise families with two working parents and young kids. It increases the pool of workers keeping wages down, benefiting employ…

I don't think companies should be involved in people's personal lives at all, it's out of scope. The state is the only one that can subsidise a particular constellation of family life. You would open up to all kind of different excuses for why people should get special treatment in the work place because of their private life.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#425

Post by freeflight » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #68

speedgoose wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why US can't have better parental leave policies when Greece, France, or Mexico can?

> Nevertheless, the participation of Greek women in the labour market continues to be 8-10 percent below the average of E.U. countries Unemployment in Greece is nearly triple what it is in the US (14%). Policies don't exist in a vacuum. Everything has trade offs. Until you accept that you'll never have a productive honest conversation. [0] https://ideas.repec.org/p/wiw/wiwrsa/ersa06p257.html

> Unemployment in Greece is nearly triple what it is in the US (14%).

This implies that Greece's unemployment is a result of their parental leave policies, which is, of course, not true at all.

Greece is used as an example particularly because of its bad economy; If a country that's doing as badly as Greece can do it, why can't the US?

If you want examples of "successful" economies doing it, there are plenty of those too.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#426

Post by grecy » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

kingsloi wrote: post #217

I literally worked for most of my child's 8 month life, from her ICU room, I worked the morning of her 9 surgeries, I worked through the genetic diagnosis, I worked through being told my child has brain bleeds, neuroblastoma, is deaf, re-intubated, etc... if my insurance wasn't tied to my work, I would've quit in a heartbeat. I'm convinced I'll go to my grave with working that time being my biggest regret in life. I…

[flagged]

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#427

Post by deanCommie » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

mbesto wrote: post #213

KaiserPro wrote: post #28

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

> Its just not beneficial for anyone. I'm personally a proponent of parental leave, but I'll answer this one point. "Forcing women" back into work after pregnancy is an attempt my mothers to minimize wage decreases. All of the evidence for wage discrepancies between male and female is due largely to women's role of motherhood. https://bfi.uchicago.edu/insight/research-summary/motherhood...

> All of the evidence for wage discrepancies between male and female is due largely to women's role of motherhood.

Citation needed. It's PART of the discrepancy, but the evidence is far from conclusive. Even the link you pasted shows otherwise. Women without children still peak at 90% of relative wages to men without children, which themselves are lower than wages of fathers (presumably because being in a stable relationship allows a working father to focus on their career with someone taking care of the home)

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#428

Post by kkjjkgjjgg » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #28

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks. Its just not beneficial for anyone. The mum is utterly frazzled. The employer gets half an employee back Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care. now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view: Ye…

"forcing women back into work" - I think it is simply a matter of money, not forcing. If you can afford it, you take the time off, if not, you go back to work.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#429

Post by TuringTest » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

angelzen wrote: post #340

TuringTest wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some circles have taken as an axiomatic truth that any disparity in wages between males and females is an intrinsic scandal. All babies are created by two humans.* Why should the career of one of them be penalized for it? Why not instead create as a society the tools so that both can share the upbringing and care of the baby while the mother is recovering? * (although the parents are not always the same persons who…

Your question: "Why should mothers take care of infants?" A passing familiarity with mammal biology is required. FYI, babies do not subsist on hamburgers and fries. Admittedly, it is very difficult to have this conversation when some people hold axiomatically that men and women are biologically interchangeable. Unless we can agree to a minimally reasonable set of differences between men and women in the reproductive…

> Your question: "Why should mothers take care of infants?"

Admittedly, you can't read properly, because that's not a question I asked.

> Admittedly, it is very difficult to have this conversation when some people hold axiomatically that men and women are biologically interchangeable.

Speak for yourself if you want to introduce straw men in the discourse; no one else did. Here we adults are talking about participation in society in equal conditions for all humans, irrespective of debilitating conditions that may temporarily affect them, whether due to illness or strenuous exertion.

Excluding half of the human kind from the social sphere because some of them have a higher biological burden in reproduction is anything but a libertarian ideal. Having men participating in equal terms in the responsibility and joy of raising their children should be seen as a right as well as an obligation. A society that is unable to guarantee that right and claim that duty is a society that has lost its way.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#430

Post by AnthonBerg » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

tibbydudeza wrote: post #336

kingsloi wrote: post #217

I literally worked for most of my child's 8 month life, from her ICU room, I worked the morning of her 9 surgeries, I worked through the genetic diagnosis, I worked through being told my child has brain bleeds, neuroblastoma, is deaf, re-intubated, etc... if my insurance wasn't tied to my work, I would've quit in a heartbeat. I'm convinced I'll go to my grave with working that time being my biggest regret in life. I…

Sorry to hear - you did the best under circumstances - you could not help her medically or otherwise but did the only thing in your control - make sure the insurance coverage was there.

This is not untrue.

With complete respect, I feel I must add however: Society on the other hand did not do the best it could have done – sheltered and cared for the people in this situation. It isn’t even efficient at any scale or context to just let it ride like this. This breaks people. Grief and burnout burns people up.

They shouldn’t have had to keep powering the treadmill, shouldn’t have to had to do anything to ensure insurance coverage didn’t run out. Earnestly and calmly speaking, I honestly think it’s most useful to view the practice as… barbaric.