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Is there such a thing as good taste?

paulgraham.com

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Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#421

Post by Nasrudith »

mojuba wrote: post #21

I was expecting this essay to mention novelty. What we appreciate in art really comes down to novelty and therefore good taste is the ability to recognize it. Which in turn requires the observer to have a solid background in the genre (i.e. having seen a lot of it already) to judge how novel and original a work of art is. That's why art critics, collectors generally agree on things more often than not: they've dealt…

Personally I think novelty is specifically a subcomponent of how creativity is judged with an implicit "judged as good or significant" caveat. Novel styles or techniques which are fertile seems to be a sign of this. Fertile as in it may be applied to many other works, especially if the derivatives are varied and creative. Even genres or works not held in high esteem are considered superior to imitators. Although there is some "if treason doth prosper none dare call it treason" to it.

A well executed refinement of the throughly worn tends to get panned as derivative while foundational works have other sins and lack of polish forgiven. For an extreme example take the infamous Leni Riefenstahl - Adolf Hitler's propagandist. She is studied for her role in pioneering cinematic techniques, if her works weren't novel they would be more a matter of study for historians than cinematographers.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#422

Post by GoblinSlayer »

Levitz wrote: post #43

I think that this, sadly, boils down to semantics. It does seem to me that by his reasoning good taste exists since good art exists, problem being that what is considered good art and what people like change with time, present a piece of modern art to Michelangelo and chances are he would consider it some sort of insulting joke. Good taste then is not something objective, but depends on context and the importance of…

I think it's suspicious that this supposedly good art is anonymous.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#423

Post by analog31 »

marifjeren wrote: post #408
motohagiography wrote: post #103

Wrote professionally about taste in a previous life. It is related more closely than we expect to techne or competence from physical knowledge. When we think of poor taste, we tend to think of symbols that are separated from their function and meaning, where instead of representing that, "I do this thing," something gaudy says, "I have this thing!" That's what crassness is, and it comes down to our relative apprehens…

> It's whether something legitimately represents power. > Viewed this way, taste is the expression of what you percieve to be power based on your experience What about displays of disposable wealth, which demonstrate power in a way that is nonetheless gaudy? I don't think anyone could seriously argue that a wealthy person is less powerful than a poorer person, and yet displaying that wealth (e.g. having a solid 18k g…

My mom, from whom I inherited many attitudes, would say that this example illustrates the difference between wealth and class.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#424

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

Lammy wrote: post #386
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> written by a team constructed by a label to create the most generically likeable music possible A few years ago, a group engineered the most un likeable song ever: https://youtu.be/-gPuH1yeZ08 Featuring bagpipes, a rapping opera singer, country music, and a children's choir singing holiday music that ends with telling you to do your shopping at Wal-mart.

"This announcement from the producers of this record contains important information for radio program directors, and is not for broadcast. The first cut on this record has been cross-format-focused for airplay success. As you well know, a record must break on radio in order to actually provide a living for the artists involved. Up until now, you've had to make these record-breaking decisions on your own, relying only…

Just listened to the whole album.

There's a certain genius to how bad and obnoxious it is.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#425

Post by hitekker »

motohagiography wrote: post #103

Wrote professionally about taste in a previous life. It is related more closely than we expect to techne or competence from physical knowledge. When we think of poor taste, we tend to think of symbols that are separated from their function and meaning, where instead of representing that, "I do this thing," something gaudy says, "I have this thing!" That's what crassness is, and it comes down to our relative apprehens…

This comment warrants deep introspection.

How would you say "bad taste" and "good taste" relates to how we define the political and the non-political? They both share the notion of power, but is there a more meaningful connection that could be examined?

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#426

Post by danielmarkbruce »

> You have better taste than me if the art you like is better than the art I like.

That definition sends the essay down a strange path. Does anyone actually use that definition? Most definitions of taste say something which amounts to "a person with good taste has good judgement about how popular something is/will be on some dimension". Even if it's purely aesthetics. And, anecdotally there are some people who have it.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#427

Post by cwmoore »

newbamboo wrote: post #365
cwmoore wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Summarizing my comments with the conclusion that "some art is better" and you, Paul, or anyone else can reliably judge which it is, does not come anywhere close to my meaning. I have to conclude that we are not in disagreement, because we are not even communicating.

Sorry if I didn’t grasp your point. I am trying to. Maybe a simple set of questions would help: You don’t feel some art is better or special? Or you don’t feel a person can discern between art that is better or worse, even in the most extreme cases? Or is it something else? If you yourself are an artist, or own art, then surely you find some works better than others? Museums make these decisions about what to own. Do…

If you would like to engage further with these ideas I heartily recommend the comments related to and sources mentioned in [1] above and others in this page.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229456

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#428

Post by mynegation »

lhorie wrote: post #252
robofanatic wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > If there's no such thing as good taste, then there's no such thing as good art. Because if there is such a thing as good art, it's easy to tell which of two people has better taste. Show them a lot of works by artists they've never seen before and ask them to choose the best, and whoever chooses the better art has better taste. How does one determine "better art"?

Better-ness IMHO is a function of expectations. Playing Dream Theater as ambient music in your restaurant is arguably in "bad taste", despite the art itself being technically on virtuoso level, and often being considered "good art" outside of that context. Liking pop music is often snobbishly seen as having "bad taste" in music, even in the face of it being wildly popular, and sometimes even actually interesting from…

My immediate thought when I read the essay was about Dream Theater and I almost jumped when I saw the reference from you. Dream Theater is my absolute favorite band for 25 years and counting, but I know people that think that they are poseurs. To me, liking Dream Theater is a good taste because it is a good signal of people and their qualities that I like. Pop music is neither good nor bad taste as this taste does not really signal anything useful to me. Driving a loud car with semi-disabled muffler on city streets is a bad taste because not only it is annoying, it perfectly signals qualities that I dislike in people.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#429

Post by hardwaregeek »

gsjbjt wrote: post #259
hardwaregeek wrote: post #191

It amazes me when people seem to lack taste. I'm not even saying the ability to rank items in a way that agrees to some general standard. I'm saying the ability to notice that there is even a difference. I'll talk about taste in the literal sense but this extends to everything. I remember being at a Chinese restaurant with some friends where we were eating scallion pancakes. I said, boastfully, that my family makes b…

> My theory is that taste is one quality that separates the academics from the business people. Academia doesn't necessitate a lot of taste. If you have it, great. If you don't have it, no big deal. This might be true for academics in ancient Greek literature, but certainly isn't true for academics in CS nowadays. If you don't have good taste in research problems that are {important for downstream industry applicatio…

This is where an ancient Greek professor butts in and says that you need good taste in ancient Greek, but it's those damn ancient Aramaic professors who don't need good taste.

I'm just kidding. I agree that it's not fair to make such an overarching statement about academics. I guess I was trying to express that I've noticed there's a difference between academic intelligence and taste, and my HN instincts told me that blaming academics would appeal to the crowd :P. More seriously, I think there's certainly a sense of taste in academia, but it's a very particular, very niche taste, as you've described. Someone who is tapped into the taste of the crowd will not be adept at understanding the taste of the few and vice versa.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#430

Post by omegaham »

anm89 wrote: post #290
jl6 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the answer is that such people aren’t actually listening to the music. They are getting something else out of it, like using it as background noise, or just as a beat to dance to, or as in-group signaling, or maybe access to the culture associated with the music, or perhaps they are self-medicating with it, or maybe they are ogling the performer, or perhaps it reminds them of something positive that happened…

I don't really buy this. Take modern American pop country. People LOVE that music and it is some of the worst of the lot. And again I have nothing against the genre. I listen to non pop country. But people are specifically attracted to the worst of it and they seem to very actively like it.

I have a vivid memory of this. I got free tickets to a country music concert, and basically treated it as a party with a twangy soundtrack. It was fun, and I enjoyed myself. While waiting for my ride, I got to talking with a woman who got really offended that I saw it that way - she likened it to a religious experience, and how dare I treat it so flippantly.

I apologized while marveling to myself that something that felt so mediocre and forgettable to me was someone else's reason to exist.

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