American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#421

Post by kingaillas » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

akho wrote: post #342

rejectedandsad wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because taking geometry in 8th vs 9th vs 10th grade doesn’t really matter. And given we are otherwise doing just fine, I think stagnation is far more likely to come from somewhere else.

I’m sorry, could you give some context to non-Americans? What does “taking geometry” mean? My school had geometry as a subject in grades 7-11 (with 11 being the final year), were you expected to pack it all in one? How does that work?

I'd interpret the phrase "taking geometry" in this context to refer to the quality and depth of math education available, and to a lesser degree how wealthy the school district is.

Given typical HS math curriculum (algebra/geometry up to calculus) being able to offer geometry early gives enough time to offer calculus; otherwise a school could teach it late and it won't matter because math education stops early anyway.

Also connotes to a degree college-track vs non college-track students, again due to the highest math a HS offers. It is extremely desirable to take calculus in HS to prepare for college, but if most students don't go to college, no need to take/offer calculus, no need to start the math sequence early, etc.

I went to HS in the US and I remember a split in the math curriculum starting in 10th grade (I didn't go to my HS in 9th grade so I can't say). The vast majority of kids planning on college took a combined algebra 2/trigonometry class in 10th grade; the other kids took either algebra 1, geometry, or algebra 2 (without the trig) depending on previous courses.

So the comment "taking geometry in 8th vs 9th vs 10th grade" would mean something like comparing schools for numbers of college-track students and funding (8th grade great - implies a HS with a large body of students going to college, well funded in order to offer variety of classes; 10th grade not good - implies a HS with a small body of students going to college; not well funded, math stops before calculus, etc.)

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#422

Post by fiftyacorn » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

cabalamat wrote: post #391

BoxOfRain wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My British state education really did feel like "memorise just enough to jump through these arbitrary hoops which keep the government off our backs" sometimes. It's very exam-driven rather than learning for its own sake and apparently it's got even worse since schools started transitioning to academies and Gove's reforms took effect.

One fix for this is to have exam questions such that you cannot pass them unless you have true understanding rather than rote memorisation.

Normally the curriculum was split between knowledge and understanding, and problem solving. You could memorize the first part and not the second part. The problem solving sorted out who got the grades

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#423

Post by omginternets » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 5:58 PM UTC

Is there something like this for adults? I've been learning mathematics on my own for a few years, but my progress has been painstakingly slow and erratic.

I would really welcome some kind of schooling aimed at people who, like me, are genuinely interested in the subject.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#424

Post by sudosysgen » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

AzzieElbab wrote: post #372

inglor_cz wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is kinda ironic that the former Soviet Bloc, whose central ideology was built around equality, had a very streamed education system concentrated on recognizing talented individuals early, while the Anglosphere, usually renowned for its ceaseless competition, emphasizes equality at the cost of excellence now.

Equality was non existent in the Soviet Union. Technically a talented researcher would earn just as much a factory worker but the researcher would have access to apparatus granted privileges like living in a better apartment, occasionally shopping in an non empty store, access to better hospitals, and so on

Researchers and scientists were actually often simply paid more.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#425

Post by qweqwweqwe-90i » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

hexane360 wrote: post #380

dougSF70 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it's TRUE. In SF the schools district removed Algebra from the middle school curriculum. You should read The Dictators Handbook, it details why dismantling education piece by piece is a great way to stay in power. You'd expect it in a dictatorship but not in SF.

It appears that that move has increased enrollment in higher level math classes in high school: https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/SF-schools-mov... See also some of the motivation behind the change: https://priceonomics.com/why-did-san-francisco-schools-stop-... I would argue part of the problem with the American system is that trying to rush students through a rigid curriculum leaves the teachers no choi…

Well, according to that article "Advanced Placement calculus courses has declined by nearly 13 percent over the past two years."

Anyway, the policy was made with intention of forcing equality, not improving math education.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#426

Post by portpecos » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 6:03 PM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #420

udev wrote: post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

My take on your list of advantages of soviet math/physics approach is mixed. Fully agreed with you on the rigor regarding notation, really good progression of teaching (pacing and order in which the material is introduced), and soviet math textbook exercises being well thought-out and entertaining. Very much disagreed on the rest, as my main personal gripe with learning math+physics in Russia was that there was zero…

> - teachers are astute at spotting students who memorize blindly, and will intervene to correct that

> 100% on memorization

OP says it’s not 100% memorization and you say it’s 100% memorization. So which one is it?

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#427

Post by sudobash1 » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

beamatronic wrote: post #376

horsawlarway wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an american who went through US-based curriculum in the 90s, this sounds FUCKING WONDERFUL . Basically - it seems like the approach above treats math as a conceptual playground, where you should develop intuition and understanding. Instead we seem to be going down the rote memorization route for most of our classes, where the goal was to apply an equation to some numbers and get the right answer, with little to no…

I could do calculus, in high school and college, but I wasn't very happy about it. Until I took a physics class in college which happened to be intended for the physics majors. Did the professor ever just present an equation and ask us to learn it? No! Every Single Physics Equation was explained from first principles, using calculus - a lot of integrals. Finally we were seeing a practical application, where calculus…

It was really helpful to me in highschool that the calculus teacher was also the physics teacher, and many students were enrolled in both classes simultaneously. You ended up learning both at the same time.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#428

Post by hhlbf » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

avidphantasm wrote: post #362

horsawlarway wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an american who went through US-based curriculum in the 90s, this sounds FUCKING WONDERFUL . Basically - it seems like the approach above treats math as a conceptual playground, where you should develop intuition and understanding. Instead we seem to be going down the rote memorization route for most of our classes, where the goal was to apply an equation to some numbers and get the right answer, with little to no…

I have always liked math, but have never been great or very good at it. I graduated from a US public school gifted program, and a top 30 US university. The biggest problem I always had with math education is they didn’t teach the “why” nearly enough. I was lousy at memorizing formulas/methods (esp. in calculus), so I often found myself dead in the water during exams.

Maths do not have a why.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#429

Post by Jach » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #388

Jach wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to know online a Romanian who had moved to Canada sometime during high school, she made similar points about the slowness of the North American curriculum. I told her about my 11th grade AP Physics C material (which uses calculus) in America and she indicated that in Romania they forced her to learn all that stuff years ago. However she wasn't exactly helpful when I later asked if she could help me with someth…

I think we do see results in domains where math & science is particularly important. Eastern Europeans are consistently among the best algorithmic programmers I've worked with. My employer was co-founded by a Russian immigrant, son of a math professor. Russia beat us to space, and given the backwardness of the general eastern bloc economy they're remarkably strong in science and technology. On the flip side, the Amer…

It's a nice dream, to have a populace educated to a much more advanced level in math, but I don't think it's doable with America as it is, i.e. we can't have both. We could at least stop sliding further down, perhaps, and I'd be glad to hear about many sorts of changes in state- and nation-wide curriculum, while we're to have such things, for what I believe to be marginal improvements. At the smaller margins we have individual parents doing what they can with things like these Russian Math programs, as they have done for a long time, and I think is probably sufficient to ensure the prodigies aren't snuffed out.

What's stopping us? For starters, over a hundred years of battling desires: https://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/AHistory.html Not any of the sides entirely without some merit. And that is closer to America's strength, in that try as we might to enforce Universalism in some domain, we're pretty bad at it against ourselves. This is a good thing, since while the surface of possibilities does suck and we can dream it was much better, it is not entirely uniform and solid, there are yet still many cracks for the precious few (many of whom being immigrants who found their own crack just to get here) to slip through, drag some along with them, and come out to do great things.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#430

Post by filoleg » Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 6:10 PM UTC

portpecos wrote: post #426

filoleg wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take on your list of advantages of soviet math/physics approach is mixed. Fully agreed with you on the rigor regarding notation, really good progression of teaching (pacing and order in which the material is introduced), and soviet math textbook exercises being well thought-out and entertaining. Very much disagreed on the rest, as my main personal gripe with learning math+physics in Russia was that there was zero…

> - teachers are astute at spotting students who memorize blindly, and will intervene to correct that > 100% on memorization OP says it’s not 100% memorization and you say it’s 100% memorization. So which one is it?

That's why I posted my previous reply, despite me being in strong opposition of the "argue anecdata with your own anecdata" approach in discussions. But I couldn't resist replying, because all of my 9 years of experience in Russian educational system were the opposite of what OP claims in terms of memorization, and so were those of every single person I know in real life who went through that system (in other schools in Russia, not just from mine, obviously). Coworkers of mine (who went to Soviet schools a decade or two before I was even born) echoed the same sentiment in discussions on the topic, with the halfway sad "some things never change there, huh" sentiment.

Would have been less surprising if my school was doing poorly in rankings and such, but it was quite the opposite.

Of course, all my claims here are anecdata, but it just feels like something is off when the fantastic utopian description of how "soviet math" education works just runs counter to every single lived experience I had, as well as that of everyone I know in real life. Especially given that experiences of some of those people in real life I mention were separated from mine by both decades and geography (some did school in Moscow, others in smaller towns, some in soviet ukraine, etc.).