Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#421

Post by trasz » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

tester34 wrote: post #418

trasz wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland's top universities - both of them - are at the very end of international rankings. As for law enforcement - it's just horribly ineffective. A trivial open and shut software piracy case can last a decade.

>Poland's top universities - both of them - are at the very end of international rankings. It's hard to compare universities, unless you have attended both of them Innovation output != Quality of teaching Polish "computer-related" people are very often in top when it comes to e.g security (src: https://ctftime.org/ ) and top universities grads tends to have open doors to faang I've seen people from both of those grou…

Polish "computer-related people" can come out well even without graduating. This doesn't say much about universities.

Let me put this way: I know people who graduated in Computer Science, in Poland, who can't program. Not in some particular language; they can't write programs, they just don't quite get the idea.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#422

Post by toyg » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #396

cranekam wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain what "energy availability" means in this context? My family lives in the UK and the lights work and the gad flows. Prices increase over time (above inflation, IIRC) but it still works, so I assume you're referring to some other meaning I don't yet know about.

The amount of energy is lower - the UK is producing much less, electricity use has declined and (although it isn't strictly certain) that is suggestive evidence that if you tallied up all the Joules consumed in the UK then there are less of them in 2016 than 2010. If there are less Joules and more people, some people must - by mathematical necessity - be consuming less of them. If your family can still afford to cons…

Electricity usage as a metric for wealth is such a XX-century construct... I have no idea why you would still use something like that in a world where Climate Change has been socially accepted as fact.

The UK temporarily outlawed older-generation lightbulbs, as well as putting in place a number of measures to reduce energy use. Even Conservatives, historically the party of industry, are now heavily committed towards energy-efficiency measures of all sorts (sometimes excessively so, like the push for those terrible heat pumps).

A decline in energy consumption is a good thing and is absolutely not impacting standards of living in any way in UK society. The reasons for discontent are many, for sure, but not related to energy use in any way. The main issue really is wage stagnation (and hence, availability of time) for the working classes.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#423

Post by rbanffy » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #336

rbanffy wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later pr…

The conditions that allowed Hitler to rise to power were created by the "winners" of WWI with the treaty of Versailles. These are not masses of sheep being led around by brilliant propaganda, they're often people who don't think they have anything to lose by voting for the extreme nationalist over the status quo.

While true, this was not the root cause any more than keeping tons of explosives together in a port warehouse didn't cause the explosion in Beirut.

You are right in the sense that eradicating poverty will probably have a stabilizing effect on many societies, but, in Brazil at least, it wasn't the poorest who supported the rise of fascism - this was driven mostly by the middle class.

In Germany it was the hate speech, the scapegoating, the xenophobia of the nazi discourse, the framing of other people as sub-human, evil and unworthy of living. This led to seemingly normal people inflicting unspeakable evil upon others. And it's frighteningly easy to make a human do that.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#424

Post by rsynnott » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #420

rsynnott wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was about secession, though, not misbehavior. In fact, arguably it proves the point; after the US civil war there was a period of 'reconstruction', which largely failed, and then the southern states carried on doing pretty much whatever they felt like for the next century. EDIT: As mentioned below, desire to misbehave was certainly at the root of the secession, but in practice even after the war was won the fede…

No it was not. The Civil War was about states wanting to abolish federal laws they didn't support such as those that impinged upon the right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wanted to(see Western Expansion.) How could that be considered anything but "misbehavior"? Secession was simply the byproduct of this.

Oh, sure, but afterwards, the federal government wasn't able to impose its will particularly effectively. It's really hard to see reconstruction as anything but a failure.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#425

Post by majgr » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

desine wrote: post #8

dstick wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read in the newspaper today that the EU issued an ultimatum to Poland: get rid of the unlawful special court that deems itself above the EU law, or face repercussions. Finally they're growing some teeth. https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/europea... However, after Googling for an online source, I came across this article about another ultimatum for justice reform in 2017, and things only got worse…

How terrible that local laws, written and enacted by the voting population they preside over, take precedent over international laws written and enacted by legislators several times more distantly removed from the population. Hopefully the UN gets enough funding to occupy the roles of state and municipal police soon. Then we can free the common man from the tyranny of local government.

First, these local laws were against Polish Constitution, because politicians cannot influence judiciary and now they can and do, thus, breaking Rule of Law. Second, in Polish Constitution international agreements take precedence over local laws. By that EU Tribunal is actually defending Polish Constitution.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#426

Post by b0rsuk » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #359

b0rsuk wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland has common geopolitical interests with nordic countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark. Hungarian strategy of playing both sides can work because Hungary is not between the hammer and the anvil. And the languages are radically different. "Gulasz" and "Dobosz" are not enough. If you ask 100 Poles on the street, you won't find 1 that can count to ten in Hungarian. Finnish is an equally hard language and t…

I don't want to make too much of this, but it is possible that you are a part of or have rather eclectic social circle. My personal advice would not be to extrapolate to the entire society. That said, I would welcome a citation supporting this assertion. My personal experience is very different and I do not want to swap anecdata.

I'm not sure which parts do you find questionable.

The common geopolitical interests - true as long as you believe Poland is more comfortable with the West rather than in "Eurasian Union". Nordic countries are way more liberal, but they are wary of Russia. Historically Russia was often in conflict with Poland. Scandinavian Peninsula can be a great obstacle to Russia if it wants to expand west. It threatens sea routes and airspace and it's only going to become more important as global warming makes the north more navigable (without icebreakers).

Hammer and anvil - alternate names for the location of Poland (and Ukraine) include Bloodlands(Timothy Snyder), crumple zone(Jacek Bartosiak). Russia and Germany are powerful states and many transport routes lead through Poland. The Carpathian mountains in the South and Baltic Sea in the north form a sort of a bottleneck. Timothy Snyder is of the opinion that central-east Europe had the great misfortune of lying right between two totalitarisms - fascism and communism.

This is a bit of contrast with Hungary, which is now completely inland and land transport is about 10x more expensive so it's not as good for trade.

Or do you mean the Finland? I can expand but you can find common points between Poland and Finland.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#427

Post by toyg » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

biscotte_ wrote: post #89

blocked_again wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India does this already. With 3x more population and probably has much more diversity and cultural differences than EU.

India and USA are often cites as examples of federations than EU should look to implement but that comparison is not valid. The US were a blank page, with roughly the same crowd starting with the same common goal and aspirations. Europe comes with 15centuries of nationlike structures and history. Latin and AngloSaxons have very different approaches on life and work (particularly visible in the “PIGS” recent controver…

> Latin and AngloSaxons have very different approaches

"Anglo-Saxons" are not part of the federation anymore, and stuff like "PIGS" is simply casual racism. Do Northern European countries have a casual-racism problem? Very much so. Would that stop a federation from working in the long run? I doubt it very much. Otherwise Texas and New Jersey would have parted ways a long time ago.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#428

Post by GekkePrutser » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

krzyk wrote: post #213

_abox wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily. I've travelled a lot in Eastern Europe and I think I know where this is coming from. When communism fell, people rejoiced in joining the EU and getting all the benefits of a free society. However what really happened was that those spoil…

> but in Eastern Europe they moved straight to a caricature of hard neoliberalism Please don't generalise. Have you been to Czech Republic or Poland? There are no such neoliberalisms (I would say same about Hungary, but considering Orban, I'm not sure, I haven't been there) We have good welfare and educated people don't beg on streets, not to mention plastic bags on windows. Your description looks more like one for U…

I was in Romania primarily, many times. Have been to Poland a couple of times, but indeed I haven't seen this there. Sorry I was indeed extrapolating my experience in Romania to other countries. I assumed this happened in more countries.

The plastic bags on windows were really common though. There was a really poor apartment block just beside the office and I always felt so guilty looking at it. From the well heated office with free coffee.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#429

Post by rbanffy » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #345

rbanffy wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily Brazil experienced 12 years of prosperity from 2003 to 2015, with some trouble starting in 2012, but still with solid numbers in unemployment, for instance. Still a hate-based disinformation campaign managed to overthrow a re-elected president for accusations later pr…

Accusations are not proved unfounded, he was freed from prison because of a mix of politics, procedural errors from judges that imprisoned him, and changes on how the judiciary works. And many people rightly saw that the prosperity that happened during Lula's time was because of booming commodities market and exports booming, not because anything he did in particular. Brazillians voted for Bolsonaro not because he is…

> Accusations are not proved unfounded, he was freed from prison because of a mix of politics, procedural errors from judges that imprisoned him, and changes on how the judiciary works

You are talking about Lula, who was jailed after massive procedural "errors", mishandling of evidence, witness intimidation (bordering on torture), evidence inflation and many, many others, conducted by a partisan judge who would be named by the election winner (a win Moro helped him secure by preventing Lula from running) to head the ministry of justice.

Dilma's maneuver was later considered legal and not grounds for an impeachment.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#430

Post by cguess » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

wildmanx wrote: post #376

eperfa wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, you are right, I quoted the wrong number. The point is the same though: due to the nature of the Hungarian voting system, the winner can easily get more mandates than what would follow from the raw results, and this is why it is beneficial to manipulate the voting areas.

So, just like the US then.

Sure, but no one was discussing the US. Not everything has to be related to them.