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Building a vision of life without work (2015)

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Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#421

Post by yourapostasy »

borski wrote: post #254
stouset wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Build the life you want, then save for it" has become the mantra of these subreddits as of late, which I think is a much better approach than the "live and eat like a college student so you can live and eat like a college student for the rest of your life but without having to work" that it used to come across as.

This was what always turned me off from FIRE stuff, and I’m glad to hear it’s changing. I’ve seen so many friends go down the path of “convince myself it’s okay to be absolutely miserable for 10-15 years so that I can continue to do that forever but without someone paying me to be miserable” and it is extremely sad to watch, and often very hard to convince someone not to do.

> ...“convince myself it’s okay to be absolutely miserable for 10-15 years so that I can continue to do that forever but without someone paying me to be miserable” and it is extremely sad to watch...

Another way of looking at that situation is to ask why this cohort of some of the most driven, value-sensitive people in the labor force are so miserable with their leadership that they will voluntarily subject themselves to such a regime for the rest of their life, not for sipping mai tais on the beach but just to implement "...but without that leadership". It is nearly a truism people leave managers (doesn't even have to be direct managers) and not companies.

And if you do not accept that truism, the question still stands, just in a different area. Why are our workplaces so systemically dysfunctional that it gives rise to this behavior in a cohort that arguably should be highly coveted and aggressively retained by their employers?

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#422

Post by yourapostasy »

stouset wrote: post #330
monktastic1 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of my biggest problems with FIRE discussions is how much they reinforce the idea that retirement is a prerequisite for achieving happiness. This leads a lot of FIRE-minded people to double down on jobs they hate that consume too much of their time and energy, only because they think it will better enable them to be happy later. On the FIRE subreddit, anyway, they're very clear that: 1. It's the FI part that rea…

I'm replying again to this same comment, but anecdotally #3 is something I've seen to a surprising degree. There are a lot of posts in FI subreddits/forums where people have retired early and are totally lost, asking what they should do to find meaning or enjoyment out of life now that they're not working. They've spent so much of their time and energy of their prime years on working and saving that they haven't had…

> ...they haven't had anything left over to discover what sorts of things really bring them fulfillment, and it's incredibly disheartening to see.

The buried lede on those stories is they will not spend out of their FIRE budget on activities to bring that fulfillment, leaving them with somewhat limited choices depending upon their personalities and proclivities (see below), and many have not even planned for how much that will cost.

There are very few personality types that would be happy as a clam spending a hundred years puttering around the stacks of libraries researching a particular scholarly pursuit, then spend another hundred on another specific area, for example. The list of what we do not know is practically infinite, and were I immortal, I could burn a few thousand years researching subjects I find fascinating. Cheap for someone on even lean-FIRE.

There are still quite a few areas of the world that are very sparsely-mapped and their microbiomes sparsely-cataloged to help preserve their bio-diversity. I could spend quite a few centuries just doing that, while hiking and camping. Relatively cheap as pursuits go.

Refurbishing and repairing old artifacts would require some spending on tooling and supplies, but still cheaper than say, learning to fly. I could spend a few thousand years just learning different trades to master craftsman skill levels.

I find the RE experiences others relate that they feel aimless baffling, but only due to my personality. So it is not surprising to me that different personalities cannot conceive satisfaction within the same pursuits. Pursuits that could cost far more than they realized they needed to budget for. FIRE is more about knowing your self than hitting an appropriate total that survives a 2% SWR.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#423

Post by PicassoCTs »

germinalphrase wrote: post #266
PicassoCTs wrote: post #151

The most drag on a life without work, is put by having to buy physical products, that are not useful, except for status display or decoration. This is why AR- done right would be such a game-changer. No more throw-away decoration bought at ikea. No more physical products like books, any stone with a small piece of cloth, could be a book. No more displays of status by buying advertised products - instead, status is wh…

The de-materialization of AR could lead in the direction you’re discussing, but almost certainly won’t. The infrastructure is/will be developed by organizations that are explicitly a part of (and escalate) the material and status culture you deride. Some of these companies explicitly make their wealth based on advertising and will hardly give up those profit streams willingly when the shift to AR takes place. Most pe…

They would completely eat their customers?

Buy a Clock from amazon or place a AR-Clock provided by Google-TradingPlattform?

One being good for the environment and some ARtist, the other being a hazard and supporting wastefulness, i can see this actually working out. Finally, its faster, its instant and not limited by physic limitations.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#424

Post by germinalphrase »

PicassoCTs wrote: post #423
germinalphrase wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The de-materialization of AR could lead in the direction you’re discussing, but almost certainly won’t. The infrastructure is/will be developed by organizations that are explicitly a part of (and escalate) the material and status culture you deride. Some of these companies explicitly make their wealth based on advertising and will hardly give up those profit streams willingly when the shift to AR takes place. Most pe…

They would completely eat their customers? Buy a Clock from amazon or place a AR-Clock provided by Google-TradingPlattform? One being good for the environment and some ARtist, the other being a hazard and supporting wastefulness, i can see this actually working out. Finally, its faster, its instant and not limited by physic limitations.

So sell me on the vision. What do you imagine this world looks like? Who supplies the tech infrastructure, who supplies the ‘products’?

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#425

Post by kerkeslager »

war1025 wrote: post #419
kerkeslager wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, I assumed that you had sex many times more than you conceived. Keep in mind, I wasn't the other person who commented. If pulling out, having sex while not ovulating, or whatever you did, is satisfying for you, great! I applaud your satisfaction. However, as I said not everyone is satisfied by that kind of sex. To say that the limitations imposed by a lack of birth control don't exist, or aren't important,…

Perhaps in the future you could avoid leading with things such as: > that's about as useful as a story of how someone prayed and their mom's cancer went away. All I did was comment and say, "Hey, we did this and it worked for us" and you replied with the equivalent of "Go fuck yourself, I don't want to hear it" Of course modern birth control opens many doors, I don't think that was ever in question. It's a highly per…

> All I did was comment and say, "Hey, we did this and it worked for us" and you replied with the equivalent of "Go fuck yourself, I don't want to hear it"

No, that's absolutely not all you did. You said:

> A bit personal maybe, but my wife has never been on birth control, we don't use protection, and have never had an "oops" baby. We had kids when we wanted kids, and haven't had kids when we didn't want kids.

> It's really just... not that hard...

Do you see the part where you went from "Hey, we did this and it worked for us" to "Therefore everyone else for whom this doesn't work is stupid/incompetent?"

And then you doubled down by accusing everyone who doesn't think what you do of ignorance and hubris:

> I personally think it is a sign of modern hubris to assume that effective family planning didn't exist prior to 1960s and the advent of birth control.

So if you'd like to admit you crossed the line and adjust what you said to, "Hey, we did this and it worked for us", great, that's a much more reasonable thing to say than what you actually said. But everyone reading this exchange can see that's not what you actually originally said.

And I was entirely justified in comparing what you actually said to faith healing, because at a societal level teaching people non-contraceptive means of birth control has historically been about as useful as faith healing.

I'm emphasizing at a societal level because you left that out when you quoted me. Please at the very least when you quote me, quote full sentences: you're only quoting me out of context to try to twist what I said.

You don't get to rewrite history so you can play the victim here.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#426

Post by war1025 »

kerkeslager wrote: post #425
war1025 wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps in the future you could avoid leading with things such as: > that's about as useful as a story of how someone prayed and their mom's cancer went away. All I did was comment and say, "Hey, we did this and it worked for us" and you replied with the equivalent of "Go fuck yourself, I don't want to hear it" Of course modern birth control opens many doors, I don't think that was ever in question. It's a highly per…

> All I did was comment and say, "Hey, we did this and it worked for us" and you replied with the equivalent of "Go fuck yourself, I don't want to hear it" No, that's absolutely not all you did. You said: > A bit personal maybe, but my wife has never been on birth control, we don't use protection, and have never had an "oops" baby. We had kids when we wanted kids, and haven't had kids when we didn't want kids. > It's…

You've got some sort of vendetta going on here, so I'm sorry for whatever burr you have in your britches.

When someone says "you are misinterpreting what I said" perhaps you should consider that you are misinterpreting what they said.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#427

Post by bmy78 »

grecy wrote: post #341
legohead wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know exactly what makes me happy -- playing video games, eating good food, living in a nice climate (CA or Hawaii), and traveling the world. Unfortunately my happiness comes with a price tag.

> Unfortunately my happiness comes with a price tag It doesn't have to be a very high one though. I quit my job and spent 2 years driving from Alaska to Argentina. I poked lava with a stick, paddled with icebergs, climbed a 20,000ft active volcano, surfed, etc. etc. It cost $1,200 per month for absolutely every expense [1] Before the trip I was earning $48k CAD (about $38k USD).. I just didn't spend much. Later on I…

Now how would you do this with a wife that works and two young children in tow?

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#428

Post by grecy »

bmy78 wrote: post #427
grecy wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately my happiness comes with a price tag It doesn't have to be a very high one though. I quit my job and spent 2 years driving from Alaska to Argentina. I poked lava with a stick, paddled with icebergs, climbed a 20,000ft active volcano, surfed, etc. etc. It cost $1,200 per month for absolutely every expense [1] Before the trip I was earning $48k CAD (about $38k USD).. I just didn't spend much. Later on I…

Now how would you do this with a wife that works and two young children in tow?

I've met plenty of families travelling around the world. It's another level of complexity, but it certainly can be done.

I bumped into this family driving the length West Africa, one of the toughest routes in the world! They had an amazing time, and last we chatting they're busy saving money to go on another massive adventure!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc61AxCQQR4

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#429

Post by kerkeslager »

war1025 wrote: post #426
kerkeslager wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All I did was comment and say, "Hey, we did this and it worked for us" and you replied with the equivalent of "Go fuck yourself, I don't want to hear it" No, that's absolutely not all you did. You said: > A bit personal maybe, but my wife has never been on birth control, we don't use protection, and have never had an "oops" baby. We had kids when we wanted kids, and haven't had kids when we didn't want kids. > It's…

You've got some sort of vendetta going on here, so I'm sorry for whatever burr you have in your britches. When someone says "you are misinterpreting what I said" perhaps you should consider that you are misinterpreting what they said.

You said:

> It's really just... not that hard...

..and:

> I personally think it is a sign of modern hubris to assume that effective family planning didn't exist prior to 1960s and the advent of birth control.

If I am misinterpreting what you said, the problem is your communication skills, not my interpretation.

When someone says, "You're wrong", perhaps you should consider that you were wrong.

If you don't want to admit that what you said was wrong like an adult, fine. But if you're going to continue to try to paint me as if I'm bullying you, you can't be surprised if I step in to defend myself.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#430

Post by CleverLikeAnOx »

WA wrote: post #390
CleverLikeAnOx wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in the same boat. I am 6 months into FIRE, and the list of things to do is growing, not shrinking. However, I would say that some things on the list turn out to be false. That is, I like the idea of doing them, but not enough to actually do it. So do account for some of your post FIRE ideas turning out to be just daydreams you aren't actually committed to.

Care to share a few examples? I know this feeling of the idea of doing them . I'm conflicted about art (drawing, painting). In some way, I want to be a good painter, on the other hand, there is no painting in me that needs to come out.

For me, it's writing. Exactly as you described painting. Slowly some ideas are forming, but it will be years if ever before I get to it.
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