Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English • Hacker News Board

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#421

Post by ghaff » Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #409

pmoriarty wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I enjoy using "five dollar words" where they fit, I also enjoy inserting slang, obscure puns, deliberate misspellings, foreign words, all to add some texture and color. Wakarimasu ka?" This reminds me of William Gibson's Sprawl slang, of Anthony Burgess' Nadsat slang from A Clockwork Orange , and of Cockney rhyming slang, thieves' cant, etc. That sort of use can have a certain appealing charm to it in small doses (o…

Personally I don't care to utilize "utilize", either. It smacks of annoying bureaucratic slang, like "synergy", "incentivize", "leverage". I'm bemused by cop jargon like "vehicle". Even journalists, when covering crimes, slip into saying "vehicle". > rhyming slang I like dazzuble dazzutch, but am not very good at it, fo shizzle.

Yep. I'm not sure there isn't ever a place for utilize; it's not 100% interchangeable with use. But, yes, it's part of a list of business and related jargon that is usually best avoided. Sometimes there are legitimate synergies. And sometimes leverage does actually apply--as in getting outsized benefits from using something. But, yes, should probably be used a lot less than they are.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#422

Post by hazemotes » Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #415

> But this scenario doesn't fit with Serrano's experiences of English, where nonnative English speakers who learned the language in a classroom are often more educated on grammar rules and complex technical terms than American native speakers. In my experience as an EFL teacher living abroad in multiple countries... this is not even remotely accurate. English students across the world are often "taught" a ton of nons…

I have noticed Indians using that phrase quite a lot: "I have a doubt." I think it may just be a quirk of Indian English and should probably not be considered incorrect, the same way British English quirks are not incorrect.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#423

Post by screye » Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

brk wrote: post #70

FriedrichN wrote: post #41

There is such a thing as Indian English, maybe not officially but it certainly exists and it does differ from British and American English. As a matter of fact, if you look up prepone in Wiktionary "prepone" is mentioned as being used in India, so it's not that weird that the teacher in the article used it. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prepone

There is such a thing as Indian English If there is one phrase that, to me, defines Indian English, I think it would be "do the needful". For American English speakers, I think the first time you hear/see that, it is totally confusing and jarring in an odd way.

Funnily enough, "do the needful" is proper English. It is too proper.

It comes from mid-19th century British English, which was used to design templates for formal letter writing in India.

These artifacts have remained as part of Indian English, but died as part of British and American English.

[1] https://katherinebarber.blogspot.com/2016/09/doing-needful.h...

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#424

Post by leoc » Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #366

pmoriarty wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education." There's the opposite problem, too, where people with poor educations will try to use fancy words to impress people (but often wind up just sounding pretentious). One of my pet peeves is hearing people using the word "utilize". Just say "use"! It sounds far less pretentious and means the exact same thing. I…

> It sounds more natural Weeeell, there's more to it than that. English has a rich vocabulary, why not use it? Just like there is more to a palette than primary colors, why restrict yourself? Me, I enjoy using "five dollar words" where they fit, I also enjoy inserting slang, obscure puns, deliberate misspellings, foreign words, all to add some texture and color. Wakarimasu ka? My father was felled by Alzheimers. What…

Much worse than using high-falutin' vocabulary (I might sometimes take advantage of 'utilise' myself) is using high-falutin' grammatical constructions AND USING THEM WRONGLY. Which takes us back nicely to the OP:

> "Having lived in the U.K., I know many whose first (and only) language is English and who make routine errors when speaking and many more when writing," says Madani.

The latest horror is people trying to use the 'so [adjective] a [noun]' construction but instead saying 'so [adjective] of a [noun]'. Folks, when you say 'so [adjective] of a [noun]' you don't sound no ways educated. There's a reason that Abraham Lincoln wrote of "the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice on the altar of freedom" and not "so costly of a sacrifice"; and the reason is that Abraham Lincoln was not bloody illiterate. (It may actually have been written by John Hay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bixby_letter, but Lincoln's secretaries weren't illiterate, either.) Now you might not think it makes much of a difference; but 'much' is a determiner, not an adjective, which should be clear if you think about it for a much time.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#425

Post by elric » Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

damagednoob wrote: post #270

> "I still encounter the situation when a stranger interrupts me after a few words I spoke to interrogate me: 'You have a strong accent. Where are you from?' It is a continuous reminder that you are forever an alien in your own country." Ugh. When will this victim mentality end? I'm a naturalised citizen in a foreign country and get asked this all the time because of my accent. It has never come across as anything le…

I frequently ask speakers of my native Flemish where they're from because they have interesting regional accents or speak baffling dialects. And that's a language spoken by barely 6 million people. Feeling an "alien in your own country" because you don't speak a language in the exact same way as the people around you ... seems very counterproductive.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#426

Post by oblio » Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

kilbuz wrote: post #344

pmoriarty wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking about native English speakers. It's not as grating if it comes from a non-native speaker, who you know hasn't mastered the language yet. When a native speaker says it, it feels like they should know better and are intentionally trying to make themselves sound smart.

I think a lot of the usage you reference is blindly picked up in corporate environments, and has little to do with trying to 'sound smart'. My wife laughs at my vocabulary on my Zoom calls. After listening to myself, I have to agree.

So what I'm hearing is that your ask for everyone is to not leverage obvious linguistic synergies in order to enhance the listening experience?

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#427

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #290

brk wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a thing as Indian English If there is one phrase that, to me, defines Indian English, I think it would be "do the needful". For American English speakers, I think the first time you hear/see that, it is totally confusing and jarring in an odd way.

I've heard "do the needful" used by non-Indians in tech, thanks to Indian expats in tech using it. I hope it goes mainstream some day, at least in tech.

[deleted]

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#428

Post by uhmgyu » Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #415

> But this scenario doesn't fit with Serrano's experiences of English, where nonnative English speakers who learned the language in a classroom are often more educated on grammar rules and complex technical terms than American native speakers. In my experience as an EFL teacher living abroad in multiple countries... this is not even remotely accurate. English students across the world are often "taught" a ton of nons…

Memorizing grammar rules and technical vocabulary is not particularly difficult. I do believe nonnative speakers are better at textbook grammar than natives. That, however, doesn't mean they can pass for a native speaker in writing or speech. Get someone who knows all the ins and outs of English grammar, but never been to an English speaking country and have them write an essay. Just about every native speaker will be able to tell the text is not written by a native speaker. Grammar is trivial, but language is hard.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#429

Post by tombert » Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #366

pmoriarty wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education." There's the opposite problem, too, where people with poor educations will try to use fancy words to impress people (but often wind up just sounding pretentious). One of my pet peeves is hearing people using the word "utilize". Just say "use"! It sounds far less pretentious and means the exact same thing. I…

> It sounds more natural Weeeell, there's more to it than that. English has a rich vocabulary, why not use it? Just like there is more to a palette than primary colors, why restrict yourself? Me, I enjoy using "five dollar words" where they fit, I also enjoy inserting slang, obscure puns, deliberate misspellings, foreign words, all to add some texture and color. Wakarimasu ka? My father was felled by Alzheimers. What…

I actually purposefully try not to use sesquipedalian language much anymore ( ;) ) because I'm always afraid it's going to come off as pompous, and moreover nothing is worse than someone who learned a new fancy word but is using it incorrectly. Well, one thing is worse: when you're that person.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#430

Post by res0nat0r » Thu, May 20, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

hazemotes wrote: post #422

crazygringo wrote: post #415

> But this scenario doesn't fit with Serrano's experiences of English, where nonnative English speakers who learned the language in a classroom are often more educated on grammar rules and complex technical terms than American native speakers. In my experience as an EFL teacher living abroad in multiple countries... this is not even remotely accurate. English students across the world are often "taught" a ton of nons…

I have noticed Indians using that phrase quite a lot: "I have a doubt." I think it may just be a quirk of Indian English and should probably not be considered incorrect, the same way British English quirks are not incorrect.

Likely in the same vein as "please do the needful", just a common translation / usage quirk.