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Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

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Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#421

Post by greggman3 »

GeekyBear wrote: post #322
greggman3 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the specifics of Xbox and patches but I do know that in general, at least in the past, shipping a game on Playstation required thousands of hours of testing by Sony employees. They didn't take your word for it that your app worked. They ran it through a battery of manual testing. Examples, does it recover if someone turns off the power in the middle of saving a game. At that point the save game file may…

What does that have to do with submitting a simple bug fix? How can that possibly cost $40,000 except through an extreme abuse of monopoly power? A simple 30% cut with no other price gouging additional fees was a huge improvement over the status quo. That article has a developer literally saying that in the end, their percentage of the profit on the XBox 360 was a negative number.

From the platform providers POV it's not "a simple bug fix". It's "schedule hundreds of hours of testing on this new binary blob the developer sent us".

> That article has a developer literally saying that in the end, their percentage of the profit on the XBox 360 was a negative number

Then maybe they shouldn't have shipped buggy software. Go back a few years and they'd have shipped a CD/DVD/ROM and no patching available.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#423

Post by realusername »

jodrellblank wrote: post #418
realusername wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not besides the point, it's important whether there's no competition because Apple crushed them unfairly in an anti-trust kind of way, or because all other competitors are completely and utterly incompetent. There's network effects on mobile platforms, you could not make a new one even if you had 500 billion you could spend on it. The existing actors just prevent you to create a new one. > But I do like iOS. A…

> " There's network effects on mobile platforms, you could not make a new one even if you had 500 billion you could spend on it. The existing actors just prevent you to create a new one. " First it's network effects, then it's the existing actors preventing you. Make your mind up. > " I don't like monopolies, I couldn't care less about the iOS interface. " Then use a Pinephone. That nobody else you know uses it, and…

> First it's network effects, then it's the existing actors preventing you. Make your mind up.

That's two sides of the same coin.

> Then use a Pinephone. That nobody else you know uses it, and nobody develops for it isn't Apple's fault. Apple's 30% appstore cut isn't bringing people from Pinephone to iOS, if anything it should be pushing the other way. I know they have negligible market size - the point is Apple iOS has big market size by being good and your plan to respond to this is to make it bad from sour grapes.

I'm talking about the mobile app market, maybe one day the Pinephone will have enough market share to be considered a competitor, right now it does not so you can't count it.

> Fortnite was not competing with Apple though? Epic gave people a way to buy Fortnite on Steam, and then a way to install Fortnite free on Android, and people didn't want that. So Epic came after Apple and blamed them, irrelevantly, and the judge was leaning to Apple's side.

Fortnite suffered from the duopoly and the app market failure.

> Except you can sideload anyways, as evidenced by the fact that you can. What it tells you is that /people don't want to/.

No, it tells you that the restrictions Google put in place so that users don't sideload (the developer menu being hard to access, scary warnings and the difficulty of update your app) are enough to keep out even the most popular game in the world to use that option.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#424

Post by yazaddaruvala »

salamandersauce wrote: post #414
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don’t care much about Androids, I haven’t used/been educated about them in 6 years and don’t plan to. That said, a general purpose personal computer is defined by its advertising not its hardware. My iPhone was never advertised to be able to run any arbitrary binary. The fact it can JIT some version of Python, or run a watered down variant of a program I want does not change what I purchased. In fact my iPho…

"-There's an app for that." That in my opinion is Apple advertising the iPhone as a do anything software device, a personal computer. Considering the only thing holding back the iPhone from doing everything like running GCC, Blender, etc. is a locked bootloader keeping people from easily hacking Linux or Android on there doesn't IMO make it not a personal computer. Whether you are happy with the walled garden approac…

Firstly, you mean general purpose computing device. Personal computer just means a single person uses it. By the current definition my electric tooth brush is a personal computer.

Secondly can you please define general purpose computing device such that it doesn’t include my toaster, pressure/slow cooker, or oven?

> "-There's an app for that."

My definition for general purpose computing device is, when there needs to be an app for that, and if the app doesn’t exist, I (or anyone) can’t do it without Apple’s permission. Which is what Apple marketed me.

> a locked bootloader keeping people from easily hacking Linux or Android on there

I am actually for an unlocked boot loader on iDevices (with a voided warranty and no expectations for driver support).

I’m also for pushing Apple to reduce its fees from 30% or 15% or whatever to even lower. As long as it continues to be profitable for them to hold a high security/privacy bar and ideally raise it even higher.

I’m just very much not a fan of opening up iOS to sideloading. And I’m not a fan of reducing Apple’s control over developers on iOS.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#425

Post by yazaddaruvala »

realusername wrote: post #423
jodrellblank wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " There's network effects on mobile platforms, you could not make a new one even if you had 500 billion you could spend on it. The existing actors just prevent you to create a new one. " First it's network effects, then it's the existing actors preventing you. Make your mind up. > " I don't like monopolies, I couldn't care less about the iOS interface. " Then use a Pinephone. That nobody else you know uses it, and…

> First it's network effects, then it's the existing actors preventing you. Make your mind up. That's two sides of the same coin. > Then use a Pinephone. That nobody else you know uses it, and nobody develops for it isn't Apple's fault. Apple's 30% appstore cut isn't bringing people from Pinephone to iOS, if anything it should be pushing the other way. I know they have negligible market size - the point is Apple iOS…

I’ll just say this one last time. You keep making the argument “for the benefit of developers”. If you want to win me and people like me, Apple’s customers, you need to start making arguments “for the benefit of customers”.

You want Apple to change? Change the hearts and minds of the people who like Apple’s products and pay Apple.

Statements like “the history of the mobile phone market doesn’t matter” or “I don’t care if the iOS interface is any good” or (paraphrased) “I don’t care why customers choose Apple” will just cause you to alienate the people you need on your side.

For your own sake, please find a better argument rather than repeating yourself.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#426

Post by realusername »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #425
realusername wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First it's network effects, then it's the existing actors preventing you. Make your mind up. That's two sides of the same coin. > Then use a Pinephone. That nobody else you know uses it, and nobody develops for it isn't Apple's fault. Apple's 30% appstore cut isn't bringing people from Pinephone to iOS, if anything it should be pushing the other way. I know they have negligible market size - the point is Apple iOS…

I’ll just say this one last time. You keep making the argument “for the benefit of developers”. If you want to win me and people like me, Apple’s customers, you need to start making arguments “for the benefit of customers”. You want Apple to change? Change the hearts and minds of the people who like Apple’s products and pay Apple. Statements like “the history of the mobile phone market doesn’t matter” or “I don’t car…

I don't bring those arguments because they are irrelevant and outside the topic, there's no clause "unless people like them" in anti trust laws, and there's never going to be one.

> For your own sake, please find a better argument rather than repeating yourself.

The arguments are there and can't be refuted, every single market analysis (even superficial) shows antitrust issues and you haven't been able to refute a single point yourself either.

I can keep adding even more and more evidence if you want. Here's another one:

There's been some group preparation for an antitrust lawsuit and in order to do that, those groups have been gathering testimony of people affected by those unfair practices. Developers were so afraid of retaliation by Apple and Google by speaking out what they experience that they had to accept anonymous testimonials. That's as bad as that.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#427

Post by realusername »

jodrellblank wrote: post #419
realusername wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All your talk about scams is just completely outside the topic, you can totally scam people of their bank account on iPhone right now (as you even realized in your message) and it's done daily, you just ask them to create gift cards or wire money for the "taxman". By the way, in terms of security, the iPhone isn't even the most secure platform right now, you still have tons of private apis, privacy issues and ways to…

> " All your talk about scams is just completely outside the topic " Only if you completely ignore all the things I've been writing. The appstore has restrictions. Those are useful. They are a layer of defense in depth, user protection. > " By the way, in terms of security, the iPhone isn't even the most secure platform right now, you still have tons of private apis, privacy issues and ways to snoop data back, that's…

> Only if you completely ignore all the things I've been writing. The appstore has restrictions. Those are useful. They are a layer of defense in depth, user protection.

That's outside of the point of antitrust issues we were talking about but I personally think they're not as effective as the marketing claims.

> Then Apple should close those gaps. "It has flaws" is not a reason to turn it into a wide-open free-for-all, that would be worse, not better.

The most technically secure platform is currently the web (yes, far above iOS sandboxing), there's no relation between openness and security.

> That's like saying you don't own a TV because the TV station can stop broadcasting and then the device is useless. You can throw it in the trash without telling anyone, and nobody will care

Except the TV station doesn't manufacture the TV, and the TV manufacturer does not control TV stations... It's like every single example you pick reinforce the fact that there's anti trust issues.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#428

Post by salamandersauce »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #424
salamandersauce wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"-There's an app for that." That in my opinion is Apple advertising the iPhone as a do anything software device, a personal computer. Considering the only thing holding back the iPhone from doing everything like running GCC, Blender, etc. is a locked bootloader keeping people from easily hacking Linux or Android on there doesn't IMO make it not a personal computer. Whether you are happy with the walled garden approac…

Firstly, you mean general purpose computing device. Personal computer just means a single person uses it. By the current definition my electric tooth brush is a personal computer. Secondly can you please define general purpose computing device such that it doesn’t include my toaster, pressure/slow cooker, or oven? > "-There's an app for that." My definition for general purpose computing device is, when there needs to…

You used personal computer above. I'm not typing out "general purpose computing device" every time. I think most rational people don't consider their oven to be a personal computer even if it has computer controlled parts.

> Secondly can you please define general purpose computing device such that it doesn’t include my toaster, pressure/slow cooker, or oven?

Sure. I'll use my toaster oven as an example, a Panasonic NB-G110P. I'm assuming no hardware hacking obviously.

My toaster oven doesn't have any built in way to store or add storage for a users program. No support for a cassette drive or even a paper tape reader. It doesn't have any sort of way for the user to run "programs" or instructions in memory outside the predefined functions from the manufacturer like "Waffle mode" that are probably burned into ROM and immutable to the user. While it DOES unusually have TWO 8 segment LCD displays for output there is no way for the user to output results or perhaps inspect memory addresses for anything beyond seeing the time remaining in "Waffle mode" or the like.

An iPhone by contrast has storage for user programs, ways to load and run instructions not included or designed by the manufacturer but a third party, ways to output the results of those programs and allow users to interact with them in some ways.

You also don't need Apple's permission to create a program of your liking for iOS but you do need Apple's permission to distribute it in a fashion that's reasonable for the non-technically inclined.

Apple's lock on software is in my opinion just as gross as Apple's or John Deere's lock on hardware. It's the manufacturer imposing constraints on what I can do with my device for mainly their benefit. There's a small security benefit to this approach but in my view what Apple is getting out of the arrangement is far too much weighted in their favour.

You're right bootloaders should be unlocked. But if they're not going to provide drivers then they have to provide documentation that would allow drivers to be written by those that can and care to. Keep iOS locked if they want but give a reasonable way out.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#429

Post by swebs »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #383
fsflover wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Browsing Google Maps is a joke on the PinePhone's weak processor. So you probably need Librem 5 for more performance. There is also OpenStreetMap, which is much faster. > Desktop Firefox was never designed to work at those screen dimensions. It already mostly works. Software updates make it more usable every week.

> So you probably need Librem 5 for more performance Librem has its own set of problems and does not change my opinion that this iteration of the free Linux mobile ecosystem is stillborn. My feeling is that we'll have to wait another decade for new players to appear and try everything all over again. > There is also OpenStreetMap, which is much faster. The OpenStreetMap.org website is a tech demo, it isn’t really mea…

>The Desktop-Firefox-for-PinePhone hack doesn’t get updated often (or possibly at all).

I still have no idea what you're referring to. It's the same build of Firefox on your desktop. It was just updated from version 86 to 87 this week. Same as the desktop. There is no "mobile Linux ecosystem". Just 1 Linux ecosystem, with some apps supporting a 360px screen width, and some not. It is simply desktop Linux, on a phone.

Re: Google collects 20 times more telemetry from Android devices than Apple from iOS

#430

Post by boston_clone »

Approaching this constructively - is it possible that this data is used for verification purposes? E.g. iOS will alert your iCloud account if it detects a new IMEI/phone number?

The claim of “20x more data” is a bit suspect as well. 20x the byte-level amount of data? Yes, the math checks out. 20x the data points? Likely not.

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