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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#421

Post by anthk »

kuschku wrote: post #25
freeone3000 wrote: post #13

I'm really tired of this Wayland horseshit. If there was an actual reason for users to use it, fine, but instead it breaks forwarding and vnc and xclip, and for what exactly? Why should I upgrade?

Wayland improves: - Multi-Monitor support (especially with multiple different resolutions) - HiDPI support (even if some of your programs haven’t been updated for that yet) Now why does wayland break xclip and vnc? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or…

>Now why does wayland break xclip and vnc? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or containerized applications is useless.

XTerm has a secure mode, which even locks the keyboard.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#422

Post by floatboth »

erk__ wrote: post #369
kuschku wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

Also worth noticing, there are other operating systems that does not use the Linux kernel. FreeBSD does have an official Nvidia driver (although a pretty limited in term of framework suppot) and Nouveau is not ported anymore. The AMD drivers are a port of the Linux drivers and are usually some versions behind because it is work to port them. So it means that I cannot try out sway on my laptop, and as I am not plannin…

I don't think Nouveau ever was ported before. I actually tried it myself (unsuccessfully). Kind of a painful codebase.

> usually some versions behind

Currently on 5.4-5.5, only Big Navi is not supported yet. With the state of the GPU market right now, we'll probably catch up before the prices on those become sane :D

Funnily enough, it's Intel that's slowing the updates down more than anything. amdgpu is rarely an early adopter of new Linux kernel API surface. i915 is very much one, all the time.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#424

Post by Fellshard »

duxup wrote: post #119

I understand the frustration, but somewhat related: I'm dismayed by how much people just categorize everything as 'anti-' or 'hit piece' (when it comes to news) or ... something that implies some sort of extreme bias or conspiracy when it comes to an opinion they don't like these days. Nobody it seems has a valid point of view, it's so often just some sort of 'propaganda' or something...

The irony in this case being that the author of the post sounds like they believe there is a conspiracy of conspiracy-theorists against the tool.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#425

Post by tlamponi »

adkadskhj wrote: post #225
robert_foss wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.

Sure, i'm willing to accept that - but is your solution for me to buy a new graphics card? How much of the market share is Nvidia? A stupid quick search's top result says 80%. So 80% of PCs can't run Wayland? To be clear, i know nothing of compositors/etc, I've had nothing but problems with Xorg, and i want to use Wayland. _and yet_ - it seems like there is not a single PC in my house, or any of my family, that can r…

So developers should bend to abusive business partners with a big track record off being assholes just because they are currently (!) the biggest player?

> it seems like there is not a single PC in my house, or any of my family, that can run Wayland.

Huh, here at work and also privately all can run Wayland just fine; just always had issues with NVIDIA, so we would see it exactly the opposite way. We vote with our wallets and strictly prefer AMD or Intel GPUs, as they both play much better with Linux and open source in general (could always get better, though).

Note also that on Linux the market share from AMD increased from ~25% to ~40% over the course of the last two years[0], and those do not seem to be short-lived effects, and the ratio may well tip over in favour to AMD soon in the Linux world.

So yes, if you want to run Linux with a modern Graphic stack you will need to buy a GPU from a different vendor than NVIDIA. At least if hell freezes not over, and they put off their backwards bent attitude against open source drivers.

If you do not want that then fine, use your NVIDIA card, but don't expect people to put in any extra work just because NVIDIA always want to be a special snowflake; seemingly putting in extra effort to produce as much extra work as just possible to support it.

[0]: https://boilingsteam.com/amd-vs-nvidia-are-linux-gamers-swit...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#426

Post by Jarolis »

cturner wrote: post #276
cat199 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my admittedly somewhat distanced opinion, Wayland's biggest mistakes were not launching with a coherent strategy for replicating functionality like screen sharing, screenshots, and to a lesser extent remote desktop/applications. They just punted and said "that's a compositor problem!" as though that was supposed to make it ok. People have thus harbored some inherent resentment ever since. agree 1000% - really do…

Remote windowing is a legacy of the era when universities ran dozens of dumb terminals from a server. It would be bizarre to pursue that in an era of hardware-accelerated graphics. If the Wayland design was weighed down by such things, it could never hope to be progress.

How many people use TeamViewer, Anydesk, etc? I don't see how remote windowing is legacy. The feature would be a huge hit if it were modernized and made more accessible and efficient (akin to Microsoft's RDP), and that's only possible if it's a core part of the protocol.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#429

Post by tarruda »

zzz143 wrote: post #129
gspr wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a pretty broad statement, good luck with that attitude! Luckily, DeVault is an insanely prolific writer of actual code, so there's no need to evaluate his attitude. His code speaks for itself.

[flagged]

> Spending your life hacking on Wayland when the world has pretty conclusively assigned capital to headless Linux use cases does speak for itself, yes.

He has worked on projects other than wayland.

Sourcehut is a notable example: A free github alternative that has great e-mail integration. One of the amazing features is that the UI uses no javascript (pure server side python) and is super fast.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#430

Post by Spivak »

corty wrote: post #223
DCKing wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

It is actually one of the big, unfixable, conceptual problems of Wayland that all the effort is duplicated in each compositor. The Wayland concept pushes out most of the work to the DEs. That of course will result in tons of predictable inconsistency, incompatibility, bugs, delays, consolidations and general pain. Wayland devs are then generally in the lazy "worksforme, use sway (or whatever)" position while the user…

Wayland isn't bad design, at least not in the way you're describing it. I feel like there's some confusion about what Wayland actually is. It's a document that describes how surfaces ("windows") should talk to a compositor ("display sever"). That's it. In a parallel universe Kwin and Mutter would be X11 display servers and we would have all the same issues. Nothing is stopping the existence of a single extensible compositor to rule them all and be the base on which every DE/WM is based but it hasn't happened yet.

When people talk about "pushing stuff to the DE" what they mean is the Wayland project aggressively scoping the Wayland protocol to drawing surfaces and handling input events. They're not trying to become a generic desktop message bus for everything an application might want to do -- that's literally what dbus is.

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