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Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

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Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#421

Not surprised. Tech companies (Facebook and Google in this case, and probably others) have been known to retain Pinkerton agents to monitor employees. Yes, those Pinkertons. “Among other services, Pinkerton offers to send investigators to coffee shops or restaurants near a company’s campus to eavesdrop on employees’ conversations.” https://newrepublic.com/article/147619/pinkertons-still-neve...

Everyone that likes the New Deal should thank the union organizers and socialists that literally had to fight police in the streets to force the hand of the state. A large enough faction of the capitalists back then agreed to reforms because they feared things were going the way of revolution. In the 1930s, the 1917 revolution in Russia was a recent memory that scared the piss out of them. Bezos would like to continu…

Marxism rewards the vicious and punishes the virtuous.

It's not in the interest of virtuous people to have Marxism. It's in their interest to have freedom, which implies capitalism.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#422
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entirely possible, but also maybe people who have positive experiences with unions can't be bothered talking about them when the popular narrative of 'unions are bad' means they're inevitably going to have to defend them and explain every bad thing that has ever happened at or adjacent to a union. I'm a union member, but man do I think twice about ever commenting on anything to do with a union because of the huge neg…

I for one would like to hear more about the positive experience. The narrative in the US tend to be polarized, and I do wish we can have a civil discussion on the merits and perspectives from both ends.

The positive experience isn't drama filled :)

We, along with other unions, negotiate a collective agreement with my employer and then do our jobs. The agreement is renegotiated every 3 years or so. If that's the end of it then we're happy. Industrial relations doesn't _have_ to be a fight to the death.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#423
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone that likes the New Deal should thank the union organizers and socialists that literally had to fight police in the streets to force the hand of the state. A large enough faction of the capitalists back then agreed to reforms because they feared things were going the way of revolution. In the 1930s, the 1917 revolution in Russia was a recent memory that scared the piss out of them. Bezos would like to continu…

"read some Marx"... do you have some book in mind? Perhaps some good summary? I hear Capital is hard to parse. So far my experience in trying to distill Marx is that he did reasonable assessment of the state of affairs at the time (i.e. identifying main classes in society of 1800s), but then his prescriptions of what to do (socialize means of production) did not work out anywhere. Maybe I'm reading wrong books.

I think anything before the communist manifest is worth it. But it should always be read in context of the time of the industrial revolution and before.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#424
HN title: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

My thoughts after reading the title: "Oh good, I always thought Amazon was scummy and lacked integrity, but credit where credit is due, they did good here.

.

The actual article's title and body: Amazon deletes their own job listings for union-busters, as a PR response due to public outcry.

My thoughts: #$%@!

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#425
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone that likes the New Deal should thank the union organizers and socialists that literally had to fight police in the streets to force the hand of the state. A large enough faction of the capitalists back then agreed to reforms because they feared things were going the way of revolution. In the 1930s, the 1917 revolution in Russia was a recent memory that scared the piss out of them. Bezos would like to continu…

Marxism rewards the vicious and punishes the virtuous. It's not in the interest of virtuous people to have Marxism. It's in their interest to have freedom, which implies capitalism.

I don't think Marx always intended revolution and the term changed context later in his life, when reformation and revolution were distilled as two separate approaches. In my opinion this is still a fault line in modern leftist movements.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#426
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, very literally, a single anecdote that they guy is responding to.

As I clearly stated: problems with unions are widespread and there are even quite a handful of examples right on this thread. "Racism doesn't exist just because one person used n-word! It's just one anecdote!" ... is not an argument. Anyone with any exposure unions knows they are far from perfect, many of them are quite terrible. This kind of ideological, wilful ignorance kills any goodwill people might otherwise hav…

"As I clearly stated: problems with unions are widespread and there are even quite a handful of examples right on this thread."

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#427
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what companies you've worked for, but salary is almost never based on a 'meritocracy,' it's based on the minimum amount an employer thinks they can get away with. That value has nothing to do with an employee's output, and everything to do with minimizing costs.

Well, speak for yourself and the companies you've worked for, but that hasn't been my experience at all. At both of the companies I've worked at we got a yearly "merit-based" increase depending on how your manager ranks you vs. your peers. The increase is anywhere from 0-5%, and the manager can only recommend their top employees for the high (5%) merit-based increases. This is on top of other increases (such as promo…

That isn't paying by merit, it is a leadership style with financial incentives. An obnoxious one in my opinion, but some people like it. Very common in sales.

If you were paid by "merit", you would be paid by your contribution to the revenue of the company. That is mostly restricted to owners.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#428
post #183
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice anecdata. Unions are necessary to ensure fair negotiations between employees and their employer, though. Any negotiation between a single employee and their employer is inherently unfair, as the latter holds far more power. Unions are a tried and true concept almost everywhere in the world, the Nordic Countries being a particulary good example. It'd seem that being unable to provide basic rights for workers is p…

> Any negotiation between a single employee and their employer is inherently unfair wow! what a statement. you are of course entirely wrong. you are generalising when in reality your statement is true only for some employees in some jobs. i think the time for these kinds of statements died in the 80s. the more we progress thru time the less we need unions because of all the new wealth that is created via the internet…

>>Any negotiation between a single employee and their employer is inherently unfair

>wow! what a statement.you are of course entirely wrong.

Dude, it's basic mathematics. Suppose you have company X that has 100 employees, and each of those employees only have the one employer - company X.

If company X fires employee Y, then X loses 1% of its employees, whereas Y loses 100% of its income.

It's pretty clear that when it comes to power, on average X can afford to lose 1% of its income more than Y can afford to lose 100% of their income. Which is to say, X has more leverage than Y.

Plus, there's a game theory side of this - if one worker demands a raise and the company hurts themselves to hurt the worker demanding a raise, then other workers will be less willing to demand a raise themselves. Again, this doesn't have to do with productivity but merely power games.

Add on to this the fact that most large companies are much more financially stable than most employees - I don't think it's controversial to say that most employers can afford to lose 1 employee without any serious financial turbulence, whereas plenty of employees can't afford to lost their jobs without financial turbulence.

In other words, a worker not being able to afford losing their job gives more negotiating power to the employer without necessarily making the worker any more/less productive.

There's no denying that the employer inherently has a power advantage over the employee. A few way-above-average employees will have so much more productivity to bargain with that they still hold power, but by definition most employees don't.

By the way, note that this doesn't just apply to wages/money - it also applies to employee negotiations on safety and corruption/ethics.

I think there are two important not-union-related things to learn here.

1. This means that the more financially stable everyone is, the more money they earn as a direct result of their additional bargaining power. 2. This also means the more financially stable the average person in society is, the more capable people are of whistleblowing on corruption.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#429
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entirely possible, but also maybe people who have positive experiences with unions can't be bothered talking about them when the popular narrative of 'unions are bad' means they're inevitably going to have to defend them and explain every bad thing that has ever happened at or adjacent to a union. I'm a union member, but man do I think twice about ever commenting on anything to do with a union because of the huge neg…

I for one would like to hear more about the positive experience. The narrative in the US tend to be polarized, and I do wish we can have a civil discussion on the merits and perspectives from both ends.

In my last job, I was a member of a precarious workforce and, during my time at the company, this workforce successfully unionised and won a contract with the employer. This led to guaranteed annual pay increases for members, improved and secure benefits, and a formalised process for dealing with grievances. It really made a huge difference to a lot of people.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...hostile political leaders. Nice! It's always good to see corporates fight against elected politicians that are hostile to projects like HQ 2. This is not dystopian at all.

Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman paid Twitter employees to spy on dissidents. He was also the guy that ordered the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. One of the spied-on dissidents was a friend of Khashoggi. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/former-twit...

1. MBS was not elected - a qualifier I included intentionally.

2. What Twitter would have needed was a counter-intelligence analyst (reactive), as opposed to Amazon's proactive intelligence post. Now that I've written it out, what twitter needed was better security - not COINTEL.

3. If companies start dabbling with intelligence and counter-intelligence against political actors directly (instead of offloading to state apparatus like the FBI), then we are reaching Deus Ex levels of Dystopia

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