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When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

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Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#421

Post by dathinab »

chadlavi wrote: post #102

Payment processors generally don't refund fees on payments when the payments are refunded, this isn't new. It's remarkable mainly because (a) it's 30%, not 3% and (b) the App store doesn't position itself as a payments processor the way Stripe does, so it sounds really weird that they would act like one. If the app store took a 3% chunk and never refunded it regardless of the ongoing status of the transaction, that w…

The 30% cut is not a payment process cut or else this would fall under: usury, profiteering, rip-off.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#422

Post by PostThisTooFast »

briandear wrote: post #103
owenwil wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple generates more than 50% of all smartphone App Store revenue, so I'd argue it has a monopoly through that lens https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/07/03/apples-app-store-...

That doesn’t mean that Apple has a monopoly, only that Android users are typically cheap and don’t pay for apps as much.

This is very likely true. The millions of no-name, rock-bottom, cheap-ass phones all over Asia and the rest of the world are running the free-to-implement OS: Android. They can't run iOS.

Thus Android has a far bigger "market share" by sheer numbers, but how many of their users are app buyers or big spenders? Way, way fewer than iOS users.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#423

Post by rand49an »

snazz wrote: post #283
jclardy wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is part of what is holding back iPad software. You can't charge $100 for Sketch and lose $30 when someone asks for a refund. Apple designed this around $1-$10 apps where losing $2 at volume is fine. What is worse, is that Apple doesn't remove the app from the user's device. When you get a refund of a paid app it is on the honor system for them to delete it. It is removed from their account, so they can n…

I'm glad that Apple can't remotely delete apps from my device. It would be somewhat dystopic if they had that capability.

They absolutely have the ability to do that though, they clearly have the ability to shut a device down entirely too based on the iOS activation system.

I probably wouldn't go as far as 'dystopic' either.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#424

Post by PostThisTooFast »

jlmorton wrote: post #46
ryanlol wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do app stores need separate regulations? > They are the very definitions of predatory competition squashing monopolies. But they aren’t, this is a rather competitive space.

Competitive? It is an oligopoly with tacit collusion on price fixing. This is the exact reason why anti-trust legislation exists. A competitive market would be one in which the platform providers were forced to divest from the app markets, and support competing app markets which meet requirements, and which actively compete on features and price. If cars only supported gasoline from manufacturer gas stations, and 95%…

" once you bought a GM car you could only buy gasoline from a GM gas station"

On a related note: This kind of scam was the reason for the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Carmakers actually attempted this kind of crap, claiming that your warranty would be "void" if you didn't use special Ford oil or Chevy tires.

The great thing is that the law extends to all products, so all of those stickers saying "warranty void if removed" are bullshit. You can modify the devices you own, and if the manufacturer wants to deny you warranty service, it has to prove that your modification caused the problem that you're seeking service for.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#425

Post by dathinab »

nomel wrote: post #416
mywittyname wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is worse, is that Apple doesn't remove the app from the user's device. This. Is. Ridiculous. We all know this is an intentional design decision by Apple and that they would absolutely not have designed the workflow this way if they had to dogfood their own platform.

> We all know this is an intentional design decision by Apple I see this as a good thing, since it probably means that only the user is capable of removing apps, requiring intent, and that Apple can never remove an app from my device.

Apple is fully controlling your device, they can always do so if they want to even if they currently have no mechanism for it build-in.

(Except if your phone never connects to the internet or a cell-phone at all ;=) )

Also apple could just require the user to remove the app before requesting refund or at least putting it in a partially removed state from which apple then can remove if.

I.e. there is 0 benefit for any serious acting person. Only people who try to rip of app publishing companies profit from it.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#426

Post by tdeck »

chrischen wrote: post #393
chadlavi wrote: post #102

Payment processors generally don't refund fees on payments when the payments are refunded, this isn't new. It's remarkable mainly because (a) it's 30%, not 3% and (b) the App store doesn't position itself as a payments processor the way Stripe does, so it sounds really weird that they would act like one. If the app store took a 3% chunk and never refunded it regardless of the ongoing status of the transaction, that w…

> Payment processors generally don't refund fees on payments when the payments are refunded, this isn't new. This is new, and in fact PayPal and Stripe enacted this policy only this (or last year if I recall correctly). Some payment processors like Affirm or Amazon Pay have not changed their policy on this yet.

Square used to refund the fees, they changed that policy when I was there and the reason was just to lose less money on refunds. I'm not sure whether they had to pay interchange on refunds or not.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#427

Post by yurlungur »

bronzeage wrote: post #8

App stores need heavy regulations. It's not only Apple but Google and even steam to a small extent. Apple is of course the biggest offender as they heavily guard their monopoly with code signing enforcement. This shouldn't have been legal. They are the very definitions of predatory competition squashing monopolies.

May be a stupid idea, but I always feel that appstores should be independent from device and service providers. Consumers should have the flexibility to not get tied to certain distributors of software. Even if apple and Google are not prevented from hosting appstores they should be required to support third party ones as though they were native.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#428

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

jclardy wrote: post #278
wlesieutre wrote: post #7

Does this mean if there's a developer I don't like, I can buy their stuff and refund it to arbitrarily cost them money at no cost to myself and there's nothing they can do about it? That seems ... not great, especially these days. What happens when mobs of internet morons decide review bombing isn't sufficient and realize Apple will help them cause direct financial harm instead?

I think this is part of what is holding back iPad software. You can't charge $100 for Sketch and lose $30 when someone asks for a refund. Apple designed this around $1-$10 apps where losing $2 at volume is fine. What is worse, is that Apple doesn't remove the app from the user's device. When you get a refund of a paid app it is on the honor system for them to delete it. It is removed from their account, so they can n…

If you charge $100, you get $70 from Apple (I'm an Apple developer, so I know, but I don't sell anything that costs $100).

Apple gets $30, and you never see it.

I believe that the $70 is taxed; not the $100.

I know that if a customer get a refund, the full Benjamin comes back to them (I have received refunds).

So does that mean that Apple asks the developer to pay "back" $100, when they only paid the developer $70?

I have never had to issue a refund, so I don't know.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#429

Post by dathinab »

pier25 wrote: post #373
nvahalik wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if they had to dogfood their own platform. But Apple does sell one app through the iTunes App Store (Dark Sky, which they recently acquired). They sell several through the Mac App Store. So, they do dogfood, but obviously they are not depending on revenue to survive here. Side note: there are a bunch of apps listed under their developer that I had not seen before: Music Memos, Indoor Survey, Texas Hold'em, and Real…

> So, they do dogfood, but obviously they are not depending on revenue to survive here. Their pro apps are almost given away for free. You could argue that $200 for Logic is not free, but similar DAW products costs 4-5 times more. Not only that, but competitors need to charge you for major updates every couple of years, like any developer. Since Apple released Logic Pro X in 2013 it has kept pushing updates without a…

This apps also can use internal APIs without faring to be removed from the app store, they can also do UX practices which are not super compatible with the guid lines and they never need to fear an arbitrary ("accidental") review block/take down.

So it's not at all feeding they own dogfood. Do do so Apple would need to run separate finances and make sure they don't get benefited in the review process.

Re: When a customer refunds your paid app, Apple refunds its 30% cut [edited]

#430

Post by dathinab »

snazz wrote: post #283
jclardy wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is part of what is holding back iPad software. You can't charge $100 for Sketch and lose $30 when someone asks for a refund. Apple designed this around $1-$10 apps where losing $2 at volume is fine. What is worse, is that Apple doesn't remove the app from the user's device. When you get a refund of a paid app it is on the honor system for them to delete it. It is removed from their account, so they can n…

I'm glad that Apple can't remotely delete apps from my device. It would be somewhat dystopic if they had that capability.

They can, just push a Apple update and wups done.

They could also make the removal part of the refound process in which case the user would delete the app through the refound process.

The idea that this is because it protects users isn't holding up any closer inspection.

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