Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses • Hacker News Board

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#421

Post by bluGill » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #282

dgzl wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge. >The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. I'm strongly against big government, disagree with most R's and D's, will gladly…

> other countries you speak about have already lost their rights Freedom House has the US at 86, most of Western Europe in the high 90s. https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map?type=fiw&year=2020 While I am not going to say the US is an undemocratic hellhole, after all a score of 86 is respectable, saying that countries that score significantly higher "lost their rights" is unlikely to be correct.

All such measures are subjective. What rights the reviewers see as important will change ratings. There is no fair way to compare countries that everyone will agree on. If you really want to compare rate countries we first need a crittera discussion which will take a long time (and most people probably don't actually care enough to complete it)

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#422

Post by koenigdavidmj » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

I think we all believe that there are rights that should Never Ever be done away with, no matter what the cost. And if the government asked to violate it, that's a sign that they are inherently being untrustworthy. Suppose that a government said that it was necessary to knowingly inflict a cruel and unusual punishment in a particularly egregious circumstance. I think you'd agree that it is insufficient to let the government do this, and let the courts sort it out in a few years, well after the fact.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#423

Post by eropple » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

mehrdadn wrote: post #413

eropple wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Economic collapse" is, one, overstated, and two, not likely with functioning economic policy . The answer to this one really is actually simple. Just write the checks. "But but but debt--" Debt is denominated in our own currency and it's the reserve currency of the world, that debt is fucking fictional. Just write the checks. "But but but undeserving poors --" No. Just write the checks. I realize, of course, I am sh…

I'm not even against these checks, but as far as the debt concern goes: doesn't it require paying interest? At which point when you can't pay the interest, you'll have to print money, resulting in massive inflation? I never understood why people say it's fictional. Is it somehow fictional under the assumption of playing by the rules? Or under the assumption that when the US is demanded to pay it'll just say "make me"…

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that these debts do not begin at "fictional" and go from there (and this is a viewpoint I don't personally hold, so long as reserves are denominated in the U.S. dollar its motion and not the numbers on a balance sheet are what actually matter): spending creates money, taxes destroy money. If you're worried about inflation, tax better. Which is not merely "higher", but involves effectively targeting those taxes too for more returns.

This is a generality and of course it's more nuanced than just this, but "spend in bad times, tax in good times" is a reasonable place to start. Where we have problems is that the "tax in good times" side of this keeps getting dropped for one reason or another. Cynically, I notice that this "for one reason or another" coincides strongly with a particular political party being elected once good times are back so that they can proceed to drive it off the nearest hillside yet again and somehow blame "government" for it.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#424

Post by nogabebop23 » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

bitcurious wrote: post #354

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge. The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. This is a rather extremist take on the issue. You can be against unlawful orders while still obeying the scientific advisories. Take MA for example, where we have a stay-at-home advi…

I suspect the OP is speaking about the cultural zeitgeist, not a literal interpretation.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#425

Post by pnutjam » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

apostacy wrote: post #389

mehrdadn wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you're ranting or just upset at all this or at the fact that HNers commenting are on topics that you feel they're disconnected from (though I'm sorry about your family's situation), but your reply is quite incoherent. I can't reply to every point, but I can't even make sense of the fact that you're calling me out for being so certain that reopening proposal comes with a lot of... un certainty in givin…

The cost of the shelter in place order is doing more harm than good. When the dust settles, I am convinced that more people will have died as a result. I'm on pretty solid ground here. The costs of poverty and economic collapse are arguably better researched than pandemics. And it is hard not to be disgusted by the attitude of many people on HN, who are least affected by this. Having some relatives in that part of th…

And suddenly conservatives were concerned about poverty.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#426

Post by JPKab » Thu, May 14, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #400

apostacy wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of the shelter in place order is doing more harm than good. When the dust settles, I am convinced that more people will have died as a result. I'm on pretty solid ground here. The costs of poverty and economic collapse are arguably better researched than pandemics. And it is hard not to be disgusted by the attitude of many people on HN, who are least affected by this. Having some relatives in that part of th…

"Economic collapse" is, one, overstated, and two, not likely with functioning economic policy . The answer to this one really is actually simple. Just write the checks. "But but but debt--" Debt is denominated in our own currency and it's the reserve currency of the world, that debt is fucking fictional. Just write the checks. "But but but undeserving poors --" No. Just write the checks. I realize, of course, I am sh…

" "But but but undeserving poors--" No. Just write the checks."

Nobody in this thread said anything about that.

"Debt is denominated in our own currency and it's the reserve currency of the world, that debt is fucking fictional."

I studied economics. I can assure you, that's a radical oversimplification of how international debt works.

Are you aware of how US government debt is taken on? I don't think you are. You are acting as if the risk profile remains unchanged as policies are pursued.

I'm not debating Keynesian economics here. If the economy is in a deflationary spiral, then creating money isn't going to be destructive in pure terms, provided it's done correctly.

"We will have to come to grips with the understanding that in many parts of modern America it is more acceptable to have Grandma drown in her own goddamned lungs than it is to just write the checks."

Again, I'm not against writing the checks. I'm against writing the checks if it's not necessary and there isn't a benefit to doing so. The same callousness you highlight in that line could also be said about allowing small businesses to fail (ruining young people's lives) to protect grandma, who had elderly people in previous generations just accept deadly diseases as a part of reality rather than shutting down whole economies to protect themselves.

Glad you, as a small service business owner, are doing fine. But every day, the percentage of business owners who aren't doing fine goes up.

What's the stop criteria for this in your opinion? What is the signal that SHOULD be used for opening back up?

Waiting for a vaccine relies on hope, and that as we all know, is not a strategy.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#427

Post by ginko » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

101404 wrote: post #416

ginko wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Sweden ultra leftist? The ruling party are Social Democrats.

Have a look at their program.

Care to be any more specific? Last I checked Sweden has been ruled by the the Social Democrats for most of the 20th century, yet Sweden still has a working capitalist economy and more billionaires per capita than the United States.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#428

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:01 PM UTC

mehrdadn wrote: post #418

nonford150 wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanted to reply to your response - the 1200 USD suppliment payment per person MIGHT pay for one months' costs. The US is oging on the third month of shutdown. The only way for many to survive IS to go back to work. In addition, for the most part, folks in the US want to return to work. The vast majority find pride and comfort in work, even if they bitch about. They know eventually the payouts will come back out of th…

> Wanted to reply to your response - the 1200 USD suppliment payment per person MIGHT pay for one months' costs. The US is oging on the third month of shutdown. The only way for many to survive IS to go back to work. I'm confused. I was saying people could demand more money instead of going back to work... precisely because the $1200 they got clearly wasn't enough (like you also said) and because clearly going back t…

If the country has shelter in place orders, transportation has ground to a halt, and everyone is economically challenged, how would they assemble in DC to protest at the Capital Building? This is where you would have to protest for additional economic relief from the federal government.

I would not be opposed to constituents showing up at the personal homes of Congressional representatives to protest, but that requires resources as well.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#429

Post by bhb916 » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:02 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #394

dtwest wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has 342 COVID deaths per million. The US has 254 deaths per million. Germany is doing better, but the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US. There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. If you have to bash Golden Corral to make your claim, you're probably a bit biased against Americans. That…

As I keep saying, comparing to "Europe" is almost meaningless because of the diversity of governments and cultures. It may also be unreasonable to talk of the US as a whole in this case. Infections are inherently locally clustered. There seem to be all sorts of factors affecting spread, and there's no clear picture of what they are. Eastern Europe isn't very heavily affected and nobody seems to know why. Belgium is a…

Genuine question: how will these countries keep deaths below 10 a week while being completely out of lockdown? Doesn't that rely on a treatment or vaccine?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#430

Post by mehrdadn » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:04 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #423

mehrdadn wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even against these checks, but as far as the debt concern goes: doesn't it require paying interest? At which point when you can't pay the interest, you'll have to print money, resulting in massive inflation? I never understood why people say it's fictional. Is it somehow fictional under the assumption of playing by the rules? Or under the assumption that when the US is demanded to pay it'll just say "make me"…

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that these debts do not begin at "fictional" and go from there (and this is a viewpoint I don't personally hold, so long as reserves are denominated in the U.S. dollar its motion and not the numbers on a balance sheet are what actually matter): spending creates money, taxes destroy money. If you're worried about inflation, tax better. Which is not merely "higher", but involves effe…

> If you're worried about inflation, tax better. Which is not merely "higher", but involves effectively targeting those taxes too for more returns.

I mean, I'm not arguing about how to avoid inflation. My question is about the debt being fictional. When you say "debt is fictional" that means that you can rack it up endlessly without consequences, but this clearly means there are consequences that you have to mitigate in another way. To argue that it's fictional you'd need to argue those problems don't come up at all. Otherwise you might as well say heart attacks are fictional because we can treat them, snake bites are fictional because we can treat them, etc...