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Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

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Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#421

Post by nixpulvis »

The key in all this is the users ability to choose to disclose when they were tested as infected. If this choice isn't baked deep into the protocol, it will be far to easy for things to go horribly wrong down the road as this technology is adapted for other roles.

As an obvious (and not all that impossible) example, consider a Bluetooth device owning person who is, in fact, physically isolated. No amount of "privacy preserving" anything will fix the issue if they know they've only been within range of 2 other people in the last .

The paranoid user would want to change their disclosure settings upon entering the domain of this isolated individual, since they can be sure they would be able to identified.

Sadly, not all users will know who was and who was not isolated, so the notion of privacy is simply impossible as far as I can tell. You are weighing the social good vs the potential personal harm based on your unique environment. Nothing fundamentally changes this.

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#422

Post by jeremyjh »

arcticbull wrote: post #399
jeremyjh wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The estimate for the "no mitigation" scenario by the Imperial College is 2.2 million deaths [1] in the US. There is a large range of estimates that have come out since then to take into account the mitigation that has happened and how effective they have been. Lately things have been looking better but without some comprehensive contact tracing and isolation system we cannot "reopen" and drop those mitigations withou…

That write-up was based on extremely early CFR data, with no population studies having been conducted at the time. Latest data is pointing to, as I called out, a fatality rate of 1/10th the CFR. This is especially true as we're counting anyone who tested positive for COVID as a COVID death, even if they were hit by a truck.

Is that why they are digging mass graves in New York?

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#423

Post by droithomme »

So those of us without cell phones or with cell phones that we don't activate, we can definitely opt out of the tracking and this will be respected forever without exception through a constitutional privacy amendment, right?

Also we're all going to continue to be "allowed" to turn off bluetooth to save on battery right? (Spoiler: no, the system only works if it's bluetooth on all the time for everyone no exceptions even though bluetooth is absolute low quality poorly engineered garbage as a technology.)

And those of us who are brainless and perfectly compliant sheeple obeying everything the government and media tells us without questioning or rational thought will be allowed to keep our old cell phones with the previous obsolete bluetooth standards correct and not be forced to buy a very expensive brand new phone we don't really need and can't afford, even though that severely damages the ability of the powers that be to mitigate the latest crisis they have intentionally created, right? (Ha ha ha.)

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#424

Post by sudosysgen »

DavideNL wrote: post #174

Am i the only one who thinks it's mindblowing that people use Facebook, Instagram, Linkedin, etc. however now that Apple + Google release a tool to prevent thousands of people from dying in a pandemic they start thinking/complaining about the possible privacy implications? (without even having read the specs or knowing the details...)

I for one use neither Facebook Instagram not LinkedIn.

The reason why I worry so much about privacy details is because it can be implemented in a way that respects privacy. If it doesn't, then that is highly suspicious and doubly unfortunate given the circumstances.

But if it is implemented right then I will use it. And thankfully, it seems to be implemented right, so if that holds I will use it and try to convince other people to do so as well.

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#425

Post by droithomme »

jedberg wrote: post #115
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #100

Promising opt-in is a bit disingenuous. These tech giants are creating a technological capability. Whether or not it is opt-in, opt-out or mandatory is then decided by governments, now and in the future. This is of course nothing new. But it's worth noting considering how high the tolerance for extremely intrusive government action currently is and how extremely weak any resistance is bound to be. I'm not saying I'm…

They already have the shiny button. They can compel cell phone companies to give this data to the government already, without you knowing about it. At least this way you will get some control of the info and you'll know what was collected and have control of it's disclosure (for now). In other words, this is no worse than what the government is already capable of, it just makes it easier for you to share the data wit…

> it just makes it easier for you to share the data with health care providers

I don't want to share any more information with these corporate heath care providers based on real world experience with them. Is that "allowed".

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#426

Post by mobiledev2014 »

djrogers wrote: post #370
anigbrowl wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how high the tolerance for extremely intrusive government action You could also view it as high demand for government functionality, with an accompanying commandeering of the governmental power by the public, which has leverage of its own. Consider, for example, that 1/3 of the country is on a rent strike right now, a proportion which will likely grow. That part of the polity is learning to flex its political muscle…

> Consider, for example, that 1/3 of the country is on a rent strike right now Errr - no, no they aren’t. This month had approximately 12% more people miss their rent payment than last April. That’s high - and bad news for people like my retired aunt and uncle, or father in law, who rely on the income from their rental property - but it’s hardly a national rent strike.

Not sure if the 1/3 is correct or not but consider this- that's the rise for April. Even people who live paycheck to paycheck can often find a way to scrounge together that money if they just lost their job. I'd say reserve judgement until we see how many people pay their rent in May.

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#427

Post by ericlavigne »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #11
olgs wrote: post #9

Looks like it was inspired by the TraceTogether app built by the Singapore Government and recently Opensourced. https://www.gov.sg/article/help-speed-up-contact-tracing-wit... https://github.com/OpenTrace-community

> Looks like it was inspired by the TraceTogether app built by the Singapore Government and recently Opensourced. Not really. This is based on the TCN approaches by Covid-Watch, Co-Epi and DP-3T (submission to PEPP-PT). TraceTogether fundamentally functions very differently.

Link to the TCN Coalition: https://tcn-coalition.org/

I am one of the developers working on Co-Epi, and am very happy to see that Apple and Google are improving their APIs to support our work.

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#428

Post by ericlavigne »

This is excellent news. Many open source projects have been working on this contact tracing approach for a while now and have been asking Apple and Google to provide this kind of support.

TCN Coalition is an umbrella group for open source projects who have agreed on a common protocol, which Apple and Google are also following fairly closely. I am one of the developers for CoEpi, a member of the TCN Coalition.

https://tcn-coalition.org/

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#429

Post by ericlewis »

Steppschuh wrote: post #117
petedoyle wrote: post #79

This is huge. A limiting factor has been iOS not being able to (on purpose, for privacy, and battery life) do BLE scanning (edit: or advertising, thanks Slartie) in the background. I imagine this will enable that for specific apps, and I have high confidence privacy will be well-implemented by Apple's involvement (edit: see tastroder's comment for technical docs). Having a single, well-designed spec for Bluetooth adv…

You can, in fact, do BLE scans in the background on iOS. It's tricky and requires some workarounds, like basically everything related to background tasks in iOS. Source: Providing apps with that functionality.

Which workaround you use?

Re: Apple and Google partner on Covid-19 contact tracing technology

#430

Post by ericlavigne »

jka wrote: post #276
The_Double wrote: post #240

There is surprisingly little discussion about the actual spec here. It looks really good to me! - Advertisements change every 15 minutes, are not trackable unless keys are shared. - The only central bit is a repository of "infected" daily keys. - No knowledge about contacts is shared with a central authority. Nothing is shared unless you are infected and decide to share your keys, which are only valid for one day. I…

In widely distributed and important spec like this it may be useful to look for what is conspicuously absent or unstated, rather than simply reading the precise positive language. To my mind this phrase under 'Privacy Considerations' in the Cryptography Specification stands out: "A server operator implementing this protocol does not learn who users have been in proximity with or users’ location unless it also has the…

The approach outlined by Apple and Google is very similar to, and likely based on, the TCN protocol developed by a coalition of open source projects. If you'd like to discuss possible vulnerabilities and propose further improvements, there's an active community already doing that who would be happy to have one more contributor. :-)

https://tcn-coalition.org/

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