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Wacom tablets track every app you open

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Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#421

Post by durpleDrank »

danShumway wrote: post #76
durpleDrank wrote: post #38

Saw this two nights ago installing the driver on Windows 10. Read the UELA. Did not consent, closed the window. Is that good enough? By the way, My tablet works MUCH BETTER on Ubuntu and Mint than on Windows 10. Krita and MyPaint are cross platform so I might just do my art on a *nix box instead.

Off topic, but would you be willing to expand on your Linux experiences with this? I'm currently doing all of my digital drawing on an old SP3 tablet running Manjaro, via Krita. The driver support is... acceptable, I guess. Krita has more than a few annoying edges, but shows a lot of potential so I've been sticking with it. For a long time I've been considering springing for a dedicated setup with one of Wacom's larg…

"Off topic, but would you be willing to expand on your Linux experiences with this?"

I'm using a Wacom Intuos pen & touch M graphics tablet, connected to a Thinkpad 430. Over the years I was using Debian Stable, MINT, and finally Ubuntu.

The experience is great. Like I mentioned, much better than windows. I only just started to use Krita (I prefer MyPaint, however I feel I should branch out). The work I do isn't special, just stupid doodles and cartoon type of stuff. The wacom I'm using is older, I think I bought it 5 years ago or so.

I don't really have much to add besides that. I remember WAYYY back in the day having to compile the driver myself for an older wacom (Ubuntu 6 or 7 era). It's practically plug and play now, however, I think there is some other apt-get stuff that I did once for some reason that I forget (eraser wasn't working?). If you are having issues maybe try another tablet. I think the one I have can be bought for $50 on ebay. Maybe try a 30 day return place like best buy and sorry to say try the latest ubuntu or mint for compatibility (have a dedicated art machine?)

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#422

Post by jmccorm »

jameshart wrote: post #408

Hold on. This is a hardware device we are talking about here. You put it on your desk, physically interact with it, and plug it into your computer. Do you realize all the ways the manufacturer could harm you if they were malicious, cut corners, were coerced by a state to compromise the device, or failed to comply with regulations? And you’re worried about their data handling policy? A short and very incomplete list o…

I see that you've worked to raise some good points here and that you're not simply reducing this to whataboutism, right? I find it acceptable that a person focuses on their area of interest and expertise and reports what they find. I don't expect or want him to get into a 360 degree product review. Let's save "electric shock hazards, sharp edges" for someone else, and if they find nothing, that does not diminish his own findings, yes?

After reading his analysis, I'm not sure how much I can trust Wacom's behavior when it comes to data collection. My concerns don't then jump to sharp edges and electrical shocks. I think about data retention. How well do they protect that data? I think about what Wacom might do with that detail of personal behavioral information if approached by a data broker with cash in hand and ready to make a purchase.

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#423

Post by mzs »

gmd63 wrote: post #418
jameshart wrote: post #408

Hold on. This is a hardware device we are talking about here. You put it on your desk, physically interact with it, and plug it into your computer. Do you realize all the ways the manufacturer could harm you if they were malicious, cut corners, were coerced by a state to compromise the device, or failed to comply with regulations? And you’re worried about their data handling policy? A short and very incomplete list o…

What prevents a small peripheral company from being a vector for hardware attacks via a foreign state? Is there an impartial inspection process that checks devices? It seems like it would be extremely lucrative for a person to facilitate that operation if they don't value the integrity of their nation.

not much https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22251384

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#424

Post by jameshart »

jmccorm wrote: post #422
jameshart wrote: post #408

Hold on. This is a hardware device we are talking about here. You put it on your desk, physically interact with it, and plug it into your computer. Do you realize all the ways the manufacturer could harm you if they were malicious, cut corners, were coerced by a state to compromise the device, or failed to comply with regulations? And you’re worried about their data handling policy? A short and very incomplete list o…

I see that you've worked to raise some good points here and that you're not simply reducing this to whataboutism , right? I find it acceptable that a person focuses on their area of interest and expertise and reports what they find. I don't expect or want him to get into a 360 degree product review. Let's save "electric shock hazards, sharp edges" for someone else, and if they find nothing, that does not diminish his…

Right. So your point is that you don't trust Wacom.

So why are you plugging their device into your USB port, logging in to your computer, and letting it operate your computer for you?

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#425

Post by jmccorm »

jameshart wrote: post #424
jmccorm wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see that you've worked to raise some good points here and that you're not simply reducing this to whataboutism , right? I find it acceptable that a person focuses on their area of interest and expertise and reports what they find. I don't expect or want him to get into a 360 degree product review. Let's save "electric shock hazards, sharp edges" for someone else, and if they find nothing, that does not diminish his…

Right. So your point is that you don't trust Wacom. So why are you plugging their device into your USB port, logging in to your computer, and letting it operate your computer for you?

Negative, sir. Actually, I was responding to the points you had made. I still trust his investigation and I find it to be significant even if he didn't address all the concerns you raised (which are outside of the area of software engineering). He doesn't need to address outside issues (like the physical safety of the device) to validate his findings or concerns.

Still, since you invited, I'll talk more about my own concerns. Do I trust Wacom as a company, as a whole? I think it depends on how they respond to this, right? Do I still trust them to make a tablet that doesn't have the problems you raised with "electric shock hazards, sharp edges"? Yes. At this moment, do I trust Wacom in the area of data collection? No, that seems to me like a questionable decision. I want to know more. I don't think I want an accessory manufacturer to compile a dossier of what programs I use at what time and from what (partially masked) IP address. More so when they're not being up-front about it (certainly from a layperson's perspective). I'm also not very confident right now that the behavioral data will stay within Wacom's walls and go no further.

In fact, I'm forwarding this to my CISO's office for further evaluation. Is that bad in some way?

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#426

Post by breischl »

jameshart wrote: post #416
tedunangst wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People were also upset about superfish.

This is all just another example software devs' parochial belief that because software is eating the world, any problem in software is terrible , while ignoring the whole stack of hardware in meatspace that supports the software in the first place. Like the whole 'internet-connected-cars' panic that occasionally grips developers. You know what's more dangerous than putting a car on the internet? putting a car on the…

I think it's not that software devs don't care about hardware/meatspace issues, they're just not as well qualified to evaluate them. So they tend to focus on what they know. It's not bad to do that - you can't focus on everything.

Also, wouldn't your argument equally imply that mechanical engineers should drop their parochial belief that hardware issues are terrible while ignoring software problems? (Presuming they do that, which seems not unlikely)

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#427

Post by lemax »

bitwize wrote: post #163
penagwin wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is the popular conclusion - but from a developer perspective, data such as what software your product is used with is INCREDIBLY valuable for project planning and prioritization. People hate web tracking, but knowing what browsers or devices are visiting your website can be enormously helpful. Also I don't know all the details here - I know that Vizio TVs where collecting data and explicitly kept the IP a…

> I know this is the popular conclusion - but from a developer perspective, data such as what software your product is used with is INCREDIBLY valuable for project planning and prioritization. Maybe if it were only used for that it wouldn't be so bad. But I don't trust a company not to take another bite at the apple by selling customer data if they think they can get away with it. Matter of fact, refusing to do so is…

Not really, it depends on the revenue strategy. Shareholders would likely be more displeased at initiatives that could end up breaking user trust and harming core revenue (e.g. the sale of peripheral hardware). Blindly leveraging everything in a way that doesn't align with vision or strategy generally leads to disappointing returns. Smart leaders know this.

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#428

Post by swiley »

bri3d wrote: post #359
CamperBob2 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Zadig work, then?

There are two separate authentication processes for drivers on Windows: Authenticode, which is used for the kernel-mode driver (.sys) and is strictly enforced, and driver package signing (.cat/.inf installation packages), which has a mutable root storage called Trusted Publisher system store. Zadig works by adding its own certificate root to the Trusted Publisher system store and self-signing the installation package…

> Zadig works by adding its own certificate root to the Trusted Publisher system store and self-signing the installation package

Is this different than the local CA cert list? Sorry I don’t use Windows.

Re: Wacom tablets track every app you open

#430

Post by callalex »

testuser66 wrote: post #409
Razengan wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shouldn’t have said “Pro” as the recent non-Pro iPads under $400 have Pencil support too.

I mean sure that's better, but now Apple is tracking you instead and you got ripped off $340 for it

Apple’s tracking opt-outs don’t silently reset themselves to “share everything” on each update the way Wacom does.
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