Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#421

Post by LatteLazy » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 6:55 PM UTC

vegardx wrote: post #202

LatteLazy wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a big "babies" guy either. I'd love if you could delay this leave till they were older. But are you really telling me you'd rather go to work and pay for child care than take 7 months off, fully paid, and be at home? You could take the leave, pay for child care and go hiking every day if you wanted...

I can't speak for how they do it in Finland, but at least in Norway you can take the paternity leave over a period of 3 years. I think most people take it out in full, but a lot of self-employed people do that in order to keep things running.

That's really smart. I get the health impacts are different for women, but I never saw the point of spending time with new borns, compared to 18-36month olds.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#422

Post by vintermann » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

jonplackett wrote: post #333

petercooper wrote: post #240

I'm a dad (of three) and I am not convinced that time spent at the very start of their lives is as significant as that later in their lives (note the "as", I am not saying it has no value!) when you can really nurture their passions, knowledge, etc. I did spend a lot of time with my children in their earliest days because it was the right thing to do, but I don't feel either they or I particularly gained from it (tha…

I think this is missing the point of equal parental leave and how it creates equality - it's for the mum just as much as the dad, so she can now get a bit of her life back earlier. I took 3 months leave (wish it was more) when my daughter was born, spread out through the year a month at a time. I loved each month for different reasons and I know each month helped me understand what my wife was dealing with better and…

I'm a dad in Norway too, and I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Getting on with their life? It's the time with your kids that's the bit of the life that's more valuable.

Likewise, trying to measure how beneficial it is for the kids sort of misses the point. I'm sure it can be beneficial, but whether they draw lasting benefits from it or not, they value it there and then.

You do get deeply attuned to your babies as a parent - at least, we did. You got uncannily good at guessing what they want, what they feel, from practice and from the biological connection that they are like you in so many subtle ways most people aren't. And of course, two parents will understand their babies in slightly different ways. They're very capable of appreciating this.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#423

Post by MadWombat » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 6:58 PM UTC

gnud wrote: post #368

jonplackett wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is missing the point of equal parental leave and how it creates equality - it's for the mum just as much as the dad, so she can now get a bit of her life back earlier. I took 3 months leave (wish it was more) when my daughter was born, spread out through the year a month at a time. I loved each month for different reasons and I know each month helped me understand what my wife was dealing with better and…

These policies have definitively contributed to a big social change. And while it looks on the surface like this is about "fairness for dad", on a macro level the changes mostly benefit women who want to both have kids and a career. It's no longer a bigger risk for companies to hire late 20-s women compared to late 20-s men - both will go on leave if they get kids. At my job, I also see way more dads staying home wit…

> It's no longer a bigger risk for companies to hire late 20-s women compared to late 20-s men - both will go on leave if they get kids

True. But now it is a risk to hire people in certain age groups in general. Could this become a "don't hire married people in their late 20s and early 30s" incentive?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#424

Post by SolaceQuantum » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 6:58 PM UTC

ryanmercer wrote: post #335

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not about individuals making good or bad decisions, but about building a good, equal society. And importantly this means caring for children as a collective society.

Both of my parents worked full time and my mother went back to work very shortly after having me. I was plenty cared for without my parents sitting at home with me for weeks or months. Pretty much all of my friends with kids the women went back to work within a few weeks and the men didn't take time off. I can't see how sitting at home with a child that will have no memories of you sitting at home with them, that wil…

"Pretty much all of my friends with kids the women went back to work within a few weeks and the men didn't take time off."

Yes, but statistically, PPD, surgery, year-long health problems, etc. are common among women. And we have also recently uncovered that PPD also can occur to men despite having not given birth.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#425

Post by RonanTheGrey » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

myle wrote: post #259

Nimitz14 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A counterpoint: A friend of mine had a kid a year ago and he found it impossible to take care of the baby when he tried being the caretaker while the mom was away (can't breastfeed, milk in a bottle is not the same). The experience has convinced him equal parental leave is a terrible idea.

Counter counter point: I am a father. Took 5 months off. Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. Diapers/food and so on can be taken care by both genders. It is not easy. Actually, at the end, I was looking forward to going back to work and sending my daughter to daycare, once she was 1 year…

Counter? counter-counter-point. Errr...

With my first child, I took 12 weeks leave, and helped feed the baby using the bottle, and this arrangement worked out great. He didn't care whether it was bottle or breast, was just happy to eat, and still preferred his relationship with his mom more than with me. Oh yes, that's a thing by the way that seems to get lost in these discussions.

With my other 2 kids, they REFUSED the bottle and would ONLY breastfeed. This produced some rather complex scheduling gymnastics that favored my work time over their mother's.

I guess the problem I have with this whole subject is... we really need to restrict the scope of what we even CARE about, when talking about these things. What the Nordic countries have done for parental leave? Awesome. Give people the choice and let them make it.

What happens after that -- even if the long term result is some remaining inequality? -- is not something you or I have a right to change because the opportunity has been given, and reality took over after that. It'd be a bit like complaining about the waves on the beach. I mean sure, you can... but it won't change anything because the ocean won't listen to you. Neither will a baby satisfy the mandates of an ideology over its own wants/needs. If baby decides it only wants mama, well... you'll have to manage. And that has consequences, whether you want to accept that there are or not.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#426

Post by scruple » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:08 PM UTC

gnud wrote: post #368

jonplackett wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is missing the point of equal parental leave and how it creates equality - it's for the mum just as much as the dad, so she can now get a bit of her life back earlier. I took 3 months leave (wish it was more) when my daughter was born, spread out through the year a month at a time. I loved each month for different reasons and I know each month helped me understand what my wife was dealing with better and…

These policies have definitively contributed to a big social change. And while it looks on the surface like this is about "fairness for dad", on a macro level the changes mostly benefit women who want to both have kids and a career. It's no longer a bigger risk for companies to hire late 20-s women compared to late 20-s men - both will go on leave if they get kids. At my job, I also see way more dads staying home wit…

Maybe. As a new father, though, back to the office from parental leave, I'm not pumping breast milk in the lactation room. 3 times per work day, ~40-45 minutes a pop. This is something my wife is actively dealing with today and it causes her a lot of stress, due to the fact that she's essentially MIA on the job despite the fact that everyone is aware of what's going on and she has full support. The perception that she's not pulling her weight is potentially there, and she struggles with it herself because she also feels like she isn't pulling her weight. It's all really complicated and we'll never truly have equality here, I don't think.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#427

Post by HBKXNCUO » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

krastanov wrote: post #255

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is wrong with having other options is that there is a cost associated with maintaining those other options, and the children will be paying it one way or another. Raising children well is enormously time consuming and difficult. Parents who want to do a good job don't have the luxury of abundant time and energy. Any effort spent maintaining these other options is done at the expense of the children.

This is a generic defeatist premise. Yes, if we do not try to make the world a more pleasant place to live in, the world indeed will not be a more pleasant place. And yes, poor people (and right now even middle class people) do not have the luxury to have the choice I depicted, or many other choices. But it is worthwhile to have our institutions try to change work culture for the better, exactly so that these options…

The government can't pay those costs unless you are suggesting some kind of communal child raising situation rather than having children raised by their parents. Raising children well requires a lot of time and effort. I don't think it's defeatist to acknowledge that. If you want to try to improve that, find some way to raise children without needing so much of their parents' time and energy and without sacrificing quality.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#428

Post by HBKXNCUO » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #281

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want both parents to be independent, then (for the vast majority of people who are not very wealthy) of course both need to be employed or able to quickly become employed. Do you need a source for that? Both of those take time, and that's time taken away from the children, which parents do not have in abundance. Do you need a source for that?

You did not answer my questions nor support your claims.

Not all costs are monetary. Do you need a source for that?

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#429

Post by HBKXNCUO » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

socialdemocrat wrote: post #249

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>or independence. Why would you consider it to be an important goal for either parent to have "independence"? What is so wrong with being dependent on your spouse when raising children together that it should even come up as a consideration? Raising children well is hard enough and time consuming enough as it is. Why try to make it harder by also trying to make sure neither parent is dependent on the other?

Independence is the most important value in Norway. So probably one reason I mention it ;-) We value the independence of everyone. Independence of young people to make their own choices. Independence of women to marry or divorce regardless of what she wants. > What is so wrong with being dependent on your spouse when raising children together that it should even come up as a consideration? Seems obviously bad to me.…

>Should your spouse leave you or die, and you are totally dependent on him, that would suck.

A) Don't have children with someone that is going to leave you, B) life insurance.

>But that was not really what I was thinking of but rather the ability to be financially independent later in life because you actually had a career.

Why is that desirable? Would society not be a better place if many more people were dedicated to helping their communities rather than making money for corporations?

>With the system we have in Norway with leave for both parents

To be clear, I'm not opposed to the idea of family leave for fathers.

>Your logic seems to be that depriving my wife of any career or financial security she is forced to stay with me.

Choosing to marry someone and have children with them is a permanent choice, and one that should not be done flippantly if you want what is best for your children. I don't understand why you think it is beneficial to optimize for enabling spouses to divorce. It seems to me that it would be a better idea to optimize for having people marry and have children with someone that they are very unlikely to want to divorce later.

>I want my wife to be with me because she wants to not because she cannot survive without me.

If you want what is best for your children, you should pick a spouse that would not consider divorce except in the most extreme circumstances, and you yourself should not consider divorce except in the most extreme circumstances.

>And for children it is better.

It sounds like what really changed in Norway is that fathers have changed their attitude toward child rearing. That, I think, is unambiguously positive for children, but seems to me to be entirely orthogonal to having both parents be independent. Parents can be sole financial providers and still take a very active role in raising the children. That is more about the attitude of the parent than anything. If you believe it is not your job to rear children, you are going to do it poorly whether you work 60 hours per week or 0.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#430

Post by HBKXNCUO » Wed, Feb 05, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

tomatocracy wrote: post #301

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But as a society we have organised ourselves in such a way that this choice is economically and socially much harder to make than it used to be and in my view much harder to make than it should be. Sounds to me like we should make a conscious effort to reverse the changes that have been made lately, then, and also take a hard look at the motives of the people that have pushed us in that direction. >One of the proble…

The difficulty of coming back from a career break is a problem because it turns something which needn't be a binary or one off choice (stay at home with children vs work) into a binary and irreversible choice. And I'd bet that those who feel forced into that choice choose career over staying at home with their children more often than the other way around as a result.

>And I'd bet that those who feel forced into that choice choose career over staying at home with their children more often than the other way around as a result.

Perhaps, I don't know the numbers, but either way, that is not the way it's always been, and it's clear that many people for a long time have been actively trying to increase the number that pick that option. We should carefully look in to who those people are and what motivates them, and then ask ourselves if we want our people taking their lead.