Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Sad Day for Rust

words.steveklabnik.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

421–430 of 1001 posts

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#421

Post by yazaddaruvala »

iovrthoughtthis wrote: post #402
solipsism wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit Pollyanna. People aren't logic robots that start from first principles and then derive all knowledge from logical reasoning. People are emotional, irrational beings. Those of us who fancy ourselves rational are constantly involved in irrational motivated reasoning helping us maintain that desired worldview. Not to say we shouldn't try to live up to the ideal you set forth. We should do our best. But the…

I’m not so certain emotion and logic are so fundamentally separate you know. Perhaps logic is just our way of explaining our otherwise unexplainable decision making systems.

My belief is that intuition and emotion are just complex sets of logic that we haven’t understood yet.

Put in the time and focus, and one day it will just click.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#422

Post by cycloptic »

rckoepke wrote: post #392
BowBun wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a project maintainer then call those patches boring or otherwise disregard them? That's childish So what? Along the same lines, it's not a maintainer's responsibility to follow best-practices, respond to feedback/PRs, or respond in any coherent way to anything asked of them. The fact that you call them childish for not acting they way you want them to makes me think you are the childish one. With those PRs w…

> it's not a maintainer's responsibility to follow best-practices, respond to feedback/PRs, or respond in any coherent way to anything asked of them. I mean, I'd say that it is a maintainer's responsibility to do some of these things. If they can't, they should allow another interested&qualified person to be the maintainer instead. I understand that it's their right to abdicate these responsibilities. It's not illega…

Not everyone who uploads an open source project to some random cloud hosting service (i.e. Github) is qualified or wants to be a maintainer. Remember that being a maintainer is equivalent to project management. A lot of people publishing open source code don't seem to care about this and just want to write interesting programs. And that's fine. I personally have sent patches to lots of people who just never responded and their activity trailed off. Doesn't bother me in the slightest, that's what the "fork" button is for.

You also say "legal right" but it's incredibly vague what this is supposed to mean. Nobody cares about this stuff unless the project reaches a certain level of popularity. So once you get over 1000 github stars, should github force you to sign a contract saying you'll respond to emails in a timely manner or they take away your stars? I don't think I need to explain why that doesn't make any sense.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#423

Post by aspaceman »

NewsAware wrote: post #361
aprdm wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does it say he has to accept patches ? Couldn't they simply fork it instead of acting like entitled kids ?

Well, from my perspective it seems common practice in most open source projects which are hosted on GH that maintainers at least consider PRs and typically only reject if the PR is flawed, incomplete or somehow adds feature creep. Of course any maintainer is free to handle it differently, but if going against usual expectations, it would be benefitial for all involved to note reluctance to PRs prominently to the Read…

This isn’t true at all. Many projects even say “we won’t accept PRs” in their README.

When the code is being used internally at Microsoft, it makes even more sense they wouldn’t take PRs.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#424

Post by neosat »

elefantastisch wrote: post #189
ddevault wrote: post #38

A lot of this thread has it wrong, and this wrongness contributes to the problem which led to this. I have two simple mantras which establish my philosophy here: 1. YOU are responsible for your dependencies. 2. Open source participants are volunteers and owe you nothing. It was never Nikolay's job to vet actix-web for you, nor did it become his job when the library became popular, nor does invoking "security" change…

Meta-comment: Thank you. Online discussion would be much more productive if everyone clearly laid out the principles on which their viewpoint was based. Fundamentally, there are only a few ways honest people can disagree: Different principles, different information, different interpretation, or just plain misunderstanding. (Meta-meta: This is the principle that I believe and based this comment on.) Much of what makes…

In addition to the (great) framework you listed, there is another big factor - incentives. You may be aligned in principles, have the same info etc. but if your incentives are misaligned it can be hard to agree.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#425

Post by fragmede »

elefantastisch wrote: post #368
solipsism wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit Pollyanna. People aren't logic robots that start from first principles and then derive all knowledge from logical reasoning. People are emotional, irrational beings. Those of us who fancy ourselves rational are constantly involved in irrational motivated reasoning helping us maintain that desired worldview. Not to say we shouldn't try to live up to the ideal you set forth. We should do our best. But the…

To the point of "honest people": I added "honest" in editing to distinguish from people who are just arguing because they like fighting and wouldn't agree if you told them 2 + 2 = 4. There are plenty of those online too, and their reasons for disagreeing clearly aren't covered by my "reasons people disagree" principle. But as I understood you, point taken. The distillation of principles, information, and interpretati…

More explictly: the hardest person to be honest with is yourself.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#427

Post by munmaek »

liopleurodon wrote: post #147
chapium wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repo wiped after receiving criticism. I think I'm beginning to see another side to the story other than reddit being a swarm of jerks.

My thought exactly. While the reddit swarm was probably harsh, it sounds like it was actually a shit project and it's probably good that it's dead

Actix was not at all "shit". People just took some issues with a few usages of unsafe and how the author responded to issues/PRs. I've been using actix for about a year now, and was excited for the 0.2.0 updates.

That said, pulling the code entirely and deleting issues was a rather immature response.

As a rust user I just don't know what another good alternative is. Warp, maybe? I'm debating about just writing http stuff in Golang due to its robust standard library instead of picking among several fledgling 3rd party http libraries.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#428

Post by coleifer »

dbcfd wrote: post #369
coleifer wrote: post #63

I am disgusted by the cultural phenomenon of making sarcastic call-out comments on twitter/etc., with an eye towards building up enough community outrage to force an issue. There are people who forget that open-source does not entitle you to anything (read the fucking license). Maintainers of large projects are not even allowed to have a bad day, to make a brusque comment, or to disagree with a majority -- without so…

> Maintainers of large projects are not even allowed to have a bad day, to make a brusque comment, or to disagree with a majority -- without someone trying to stir up a lynch mob. It sickens me the lack of balance between the work done by the maintainers, and the expectations of random users. Sure they are. There's a number of projects out there with a massive caveat on the front page that says "Not for production us…

>t. open-source user dying to see trigger warnings on repos

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#429

Post by fluffything »

stanferder wrote: post #80
endothrowho333 wrote: post #21

> “Why Reddit is like this” is a whole other essay; I think it’s built into reddit’s structure itself. Classic Eternal September. Around 60k subscribers, the cultural identity starts degrading, as the amount of "old guard" is outmatched by "new blood." Therefore, the old "monkey see, monkey do" phenomenon, where new users would slowly mimic the culture of the prevailing older users to "fit in," is replaced with new u…

It might not be just reddit though. The author's summary points to a volatile combination of elements in Rust itself: 1) [T]he Rust project saw Rust as more than just the language... 2) unsafe... is a really important part of Rust, but also a very dangerous one, hence the name. If a project is considered to be not just a project, but something closer to a cause, people are going to defend their understanding of that…

> And introducing the language of "safe" and "unsafe" isn't just descriptive, it's a value judgment.

`unsafe` is a PL term that refers to _soundness_. In Rust, an `unsafe { ... }` block is required to perform an `unsafe` operation, and it precisely means "The code in this block has been proven _sound_". If the code in the block turns out to be _unsound_, e.g., because the proof is incorrect, or non-existent, then the whole program is unsound, and there is nothing that can be said about the execution of such program (usually known as "the execution exhibits undefined behavior").

For example, the Rust compiler has a lint that requires you to write a soundness proof on every `unsafe { ... }` block, explaining why that is sound, and all changes to the compiler are gated on that.

In your own projects, you can obviously do whatever you want, but for any non-trivial amount of unsafe code, without a proof, you are basically just building castles in the air.

Re: A Sad Day for Rust

#430

Post by munmaek »

_-___________-_ wrote: post #352

I've written a lot of Rust code that's in production in web, messaging and telephony contexts. I considered using Actix early on, but as soon as I saw the large amount of unsafe code, I stopped considering it at all. I did not go on the Internet and try to convince other people not to use it. I did not complain at the maintainer that he should manage his project differently. I just didn't see why a library doing what…

What do you use now? Warp?
Post reply on HN