Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

421–430 of 708 posts

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#421

Post by tomschlick »

p1necone wrote: post #403
tomschlick wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to see reasonable discussion is still alive and well on HN. /s

The current US government is blatantly and overtly criminal, it seems reasonable to me to assume anyone arguing in their favor is arguing in bad faith and disengage.

> it seems reasonable to me to assume anyone arguing in their favor is arguing in bad faith and disengage.

I'm not arguing in their favor. I would like nothing more than for us to have strong border control and a functional immigration system that isn't overloaded with false asylum claims so that the real ones can get through. We definitely need to overhaul things like the H1B programs as well.

My argument here is that no country's immigration system could handle this type of steady influx of 100k+ people per month [1] exploiting the asylum claims. Many of which only claim such after they illegally cross (yes i know you can technically claim whenever, but that's mighty convenient after crossing illegally).

The systems were not built for this kind of thing. Basically under current law you have the choice to detain people until their asylum case is heard or release them on their own recognizance inside the country and hope they return for court. The family separation thing has happened because of a court ruling saying that kids and adults couldn't be detained together because of abuse concerns. If the same thing happened to Canada their systems would be in shambles just like ours. There needs to be a mixture of border security and fixes to immigration law to remedy this problem but none of that can happen while Congress sits on it's hands playing politics.

[1] https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#422

Post by slykat »

_7bxa wrote: post #395
slykat wrote: post #381

I find it ironic that the same people protesting the contract would also protest a bakery that refuses to sell a product for say a same sex couple (or if you were in the 60s, restaurants that refused to serve blacks). You either have a viewpoint that: 1) a business shouldn't make a moral judgement on its customers and be accessible to all 2) A business can make moral judgements on its customers and choose not to do b…

The difference is not serving black or queer people isn't a moral judgement -- it's just discrimination (there isn't anything inherently wrong with being Black the same way there isn't anything wrong with being queer or Asian or Indian, those things aren't a choice unlike being a Nazi). At best, not serving minorities is a shitty moral judgement. Not serving ICE is a more legitimate moral judgement because ICE has th…

Do you not see the negative repercussions for businesses serving the public to be allowed to make a moral judgement on who they do business with?

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#423

Post by manigandham »

opnitro wrote: post #416
jimbobimbo wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should that baker bake the cake or not?

I mean, we carve out special exceptions for race, gender, sexual orientation, etc... Beyond those special carve outs, laborers should have the freedom to follow their ethics.

They can, by working elsewhere.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#424

Post by tomschlick »

heyoni wrote: post #414
tomschlick wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to see reasonable discussion is still alive and well on HN. /s

There are plenty of good rebuttals you’ve conveniently missed. Also, 300k/year was the maximum in 2000.

> There are plenty of good rebuttals you’ve conveniently missed.

I got 5 replies in a span of 5 minutes. I can't respond that fast with the detail and nuance of my positions.

> Also, 300k/year was the maximum in 2000.

And now we are up to 500k last year, and another 950k this year. https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#425

Post by slykat »

dunstad wrote: post #420
slykat wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how is Github's product enabling human rights violations? I can understand if Github employees were protesting a product that created human rights violations (for example if Github offered a security service for ICE detention centers that was abusing prisoners). Would you be ok if Github was a restaurant and it had a policy of not serving anyone who is an ICE employee?

Yeah, I would love that actually. ICE runs concentration camps. Not enough people treat them how they deserve.

Ok so would you ok with a restaurant not serving republicans because the party currently supports ICE's actions?

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#426

Post by tomschlick »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #399
tomschlick wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE is getting raked over the coals in the court of public opinion because they don't have the funding nor the manpower to deal with 100k people coming over the border each month. Many asylum seekers are just exploiting the asylum system with invalid cases as economic migrants to delay the process so they don't get sent back home. All the while congress hasn't done much at all to fix the obvious problems in the law (…

They have the manpower, they're just doing everything as inefficiently and inhumanely as possible in order to arrive at this outcome. This is a choice that the administration is making, and ICE is implementing it.

> They have the manpower, they're just doing everything as inefficiently and inhumanely as possible in order to arrive at this outcome.

Source? Last I checked the system was still drastically in need of border patrol, immigration judges, case workers, beds to house people, etc. Those things can't just spin up in a week and be effective.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#427

Post by zer00eyz »

opnitro wrote: post #376
zer00eyz wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm baffled by this statement. Sure you have a say, you also (likely) have the luxury of having a skill set that makes you able to make these choices. A while back there was an ask HN post about surviving through the first bubble (2001). If you find a group of engineers of that vintage it is likely that you can quickly find someone who worked putting up adult content. (Note I don't have an objection to the topic but…

I tend to think labor should have more power over what it creates. I'm not sure how an example of being required to work on something they objected to due to economic factors outside of their control is an example that helps your case.

> I'm not sure how an example of being required to work on something they objected to due to economic factors outside of their control is an example that helps your case.

Quitting on moral grounds is a luxury in the scope of human history, and is a luxury for MOST Americans today. Im not sure it is a realistic stance for most people (but probably for most of HN).

I don't think GitHub is going to (or should) change its stance. I'm sure there are plenty of things on GitHub that are worse, or have been used to worse ends than providing source control for ICE.

> I tend to think labor should have more power over what it creates.

I do a lot of contract/freelance work.

The trade off is that control means I am also liable in the event that my work causes an issue (legally as well as from the stand point of being a good citizen and business person).

Indemnity is a wonderful thing. Indemnity is why we have open source. Lots of things work because labor, and its products are decoupled from the end use. Should we stop making guns because someone might kill another person? Should we stop making fertilizer because it can be turned into a bomb? The end result of both products is the same but the intent in the production of either is not HARM.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#428

Post by op00to »

Izkata wrote: post #257
house9-2 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's highly unlikely they're illegals I consider 'illegals' to be a derogatory term used by racists (whether they think they are racist is another matter) Did you drive a car today? Did you speed? If so that is an illegal activity so maybe you are also an 'illegal'? Maybe I am way off base? I should probably go hug a tree or something.

It's short for the legal term "illegal alien". An equivalent with your driving example would be "illegal speeding" (as opposed to, say, an ambulance, which can legally be given permission to speed). The big difference is that "illegal alien" really does refer to a person simply existing in a country they are not supposed to be in, rather than an action like speeding, hence why shortening it to just the adjective "ill…

Illegal in the context of a speeder is a criminal matter. Illegal in the context of an immigrant/alien is referring to a violation of civil laws and not criminal ones. Maybe an apt comparison would be illegal CEO for those caught salary fixing.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#429

Post by tomschlick »

p1necone wrote: post #377
tomschlick wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't the employees at all these other companies object like Github employees? Why do Github employees get a special right to withhold consent for their product to be used in a setting they might object to? Why is ICE the only company that they object to? Why do some causes get their favor and not others? Wokeness and the recent trend of trying to cancel anything that doesn't align within a narrow spectrum of p…

> "narrow spectrum of progressive viewpoints" Oh fuck off, the way the US government is currently treating asylum seekers and immigrants is horrifying. Only within the bubble of American politics could someone brush complaining about it off like that.

Most asylum seekers don't have valid claims for asylum. They are economic migrants that are bogging down the system for valid asylum cases. Bogging down a system that was not built for it results in overcrowding, long delays and other pretty shitty things. Thats why congress needs to take further action to 1) limit the number of invalid claims making it into the system and 2) make sure DHS/ICE has the proper resources to deal with it all.

Re: GitHub tries to quell employee anger over its ICE contract

#430

Post by dunstad »

slykat wrote: post #425
dunstad wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I would love that actually. ICE runs concentration camps. Not enough people treat them how they deserve.

Ok so would you ok with a restaurant not serving republicans because the party currently supports ICE's actions?

Yep! The current GOP is corrupt in every way you can imagine, and by all accounts doing their best to turn the United States into a dictatorship.
Post reply on HN