Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku • Hacker News Board

Re: Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku

#421

Post by Grinnz » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 1:37 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #393

kbd wrote: post #136

Naming matters. Nim changing from "Nimrod" matters. Cockroachdb's name is offputting. Perl 6's name has caused endless confusion and by itself sabotaged both Perl 5 and Perl 6. Perl 6 has interesting ideas but I don't even want to touch it because its naming issue is so toxic. I'm glad they're going to rename it.

> Naming matters Not that much. > Nim changing from "Nimrod" matters Hardly. > Cockroachdb's name is offputting. Not enough to matter. They still raised over $60 million in funding... Many people have internalized Marketing/SEO/enterprise-pointy-hair-boss thinking about "what matters", but in the grand scheme of things, naming is not really that relevant...

To someone versed in both languages, no. Otherwise, the name giving official credence to assumptions that no longer hold is damaging to both.

Re: Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku

#422

Post by Grinnz » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 1:38 AM UTC

ksec wrote: post #418

The Author point to [1] for reason for Raku instead of Camelia. One thing that struck me, 12. Both raku.com and raku.org are currently available. I was surprised that a 4 letter .com or .org is still available. So I looked it up and turns out to be not true. And it was interesting half of the discussion had domain name availability as factor. [1] https://github.com/perl6/problem-solving/issues/81#issuecomm...

raku.org is no longer available because it is controlled by the Raku project.

Re: Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku

#423

Post by Grinnz » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 1:41 AM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #409

mst wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

File::Slurp is broken AF though, and obsoleted by File::Slurper since the original can't be fixed without breaking accidentally working code in the wild. Still mostly fine so long as you know you're only dealing with 7-bit ASCII, IIRC, but Caveat Emptor.

Ah, well I actually use Path::Tony's slurp functionality mostly, depending on if it's already available in the project (which it is in any I set up). It's easier to just say File::Slurp in mixed company so people immediately know what it is if they look it up, rather than them be confronted with a grab-bag of functions.

File::Slurper is just as immediately obvious, and happens to not be fundamentally misdesigned :) Path::Tiny is also great.

Re: Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku

#424

Post by Grinnz » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 1:43 AM UTC

cutler wrote: post #345

kbenson wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while ( ) { ($h{$_}++ == 1) && push (@outputarray, $_); }; That's a business culture thing. If you set the expectation, that it's okay to do that, people might do that. If you set the expectation that it's not okay, people shouldn't. The equivalent C and Python are likely just as ugly (given that the equivalent python might be using a far too complex range statement or put it on a single line using : and ;, which i…

There's always if is too cryptic. I think what most fail to grok, if they've only glanced at Perl, is context. Above all Perl is a context-based language. It's the opposite of Python's spell-everything-out approach but just as valid. Perl also excels at whipupitude.

is actually . And actually the least cryptic spelling IMO is "readline(*ARGV)" or just bare readline, which still compiles to the same opcodes. Sure, is more common, but it's easier to find what readline and ARGV mean.

Re: Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku

#425

Post by exikyut » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 1:52 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #394

pvaldes wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. To name another example, I personally can't take seriously anything named 'webinar'. Webinar is similar in spanish to the word huevina that means "egg beaters" (a replacement cheap and second quality). It sounds also like "web-vaina" (a vaina is "something" and specially used when something annoying happens) and has common roots with words like "huevín" (little testicle) and "huevada" (something irrelevant, la…

> Agree. To name another example, I personally can't take seriously anything named 'webinar' Seeing that webinars have caught on like wildfire, become a multi-billion dollar business, and forced all kinds of eLearning and online platforms to say they offer the ability to produce/share "webinars", I'd say this is rather a counter-example. I.e. more like "A few might find X or Y name off-putting, some outliers might ev…

I agree with you and the GP.

The execution, the thing, the multibillion dollar industry, are excellent, and the world would be worse for their nonexistence.

The naming, on the other hand, is indeed a disaster. I too can't take it seriously, although I can't quite put my finger on why as well as the GP can. To me it just sounds like the "lite" version of something, but to the extreme where it might as well be the toy version.

Yet another case of buzzword intolerance, it would seem.

Re: Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku

#426

Post by Grinnz » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 1:52 AM UTC

emptybits wrote: post #344

sys_64738 wrote: post #31

What utility does Perl provide in a world dominated by python?

I love Python and I don't see the subset of the world dominated by Python changing to Raku any time soon. But there are some things that made me smile and nod and want to read more about the language. Two, off the top of my head. 1. Raku treats math in a manner that wouldn't surprise a mathematician. Or grade school student, for that matter. Witness: $ python3 -c 'print(0.3 == 0.1 + 0.2)' False $ ruby -e 'puts 0.3 ==…

As a Perl programmer, this is basically a post I might have written (aside from knowing it's not dominant anymore :) One more really cool aspect is the first class Unicode support, which Perl can do but you have to work at it.

Re: Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku

#427

Post by hirihoto » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 3:30 AM UTC

Ovid wrote: post #377

snapdangle wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth checking out the Red ORM, great progress is being made and it feels very Perl 6 native in terms of its semantics.

Red looks interesting. Though I don't like the mapping of tables to "model". In general, I find that a model should be a consumer of an ORM, not the ORM itself. Otherwise, you expose to much to the business layer and it's harder to refactor. For example, if you have a column on table A and you later need to move that to table B, a clean model can encapsulate that change. Hard to do when the ORM is being treated direc…

Try Xoos. Red also uses a meta model syntax for extra ugliness.

Re: Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku

#428

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 4:22 AM UTC

zumu wrote: post #408

edflsafoiewq wrote: post #33

From what I could tell, Raku appears to be from Rakudo, the Perl 6 compiler, which is a shortened form of rakuda-dou (="way of the camel" in Japanese). Rakudo also means "paradise". The "raku" from "way of the camel" means "camel", while the "raku" from "paradise" means "fun" or "enjoyable" (or "music"). Incidentally, it also happens to sound similar to "roku" (="six").

So as a Japanese speaker, I don't think I ever would have made the 'raku' == 'rakuda' camel connection. Also, while 'raku' is the reading for 楽, which connotes easy, simple and other good things, it is also the reading for a bunch of other characters--namely, 落, which means or carries the connotation of falling, declining or otherwise missing the mark. When I see the 'raku' transliteration in the context of Perl, I t…

[deleted]

Re: Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku

#429

Post by nocman » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 6:31 AM UTC

Grinnz wrote: post #337

skinniks wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked on large 20 year old Java and C applications (OLTP and batch processes) and I can assure you that they can be as ugly as any old Perl code you have dealt with. Saying that I see absolutely nothing wrong with that perl code you are highlighting as being obtuse or ugly. Anyone who understands Perl should not have an issue with that line. It is clear and concise.

Well, the "foo && bar" is a bit of a bashism, idiomatic perl would do "bar if foo" or similar.

And a C-ism, and a C++-ism, and a Java-ism, and probably at least one other I'm not thinking of at the moment.

There are a variety of things that Perl programmers would consider idiomatic (depending, I would say, on the background of the Perl programmer). Using something like (foo && bar) in this manner is actually quite common in some Perl code bases (although, I suspect it is more commonly used where there are multiple conditions that are chained -- Damian Conway's "Perl Best Practices" book has some examples of those).

In the example given, I suspect the author of that code did it that way to reduce the length and put it on one line. I understand the desire for concise code, but if it were me, I would spread it out more to make it easier to read (mostly, I just wouldn't put it all on one line). I like having concise code also, but there is a fairly definite line that I try not to cross. If I have to work hard at all to keep track of the pieces, it's time to either add some more whitespace (horizontally or vertically, or sometimes both), change some of the constructs, or add some temporary variables to make the intent clear.

I am the person most likely to have to deal with the code a year later, so like many others, I try to not confuse my future self.

Re: Larry Wall has approved renaming Perl 6 to Raku

#430

Post by weirdkid » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 6:35 AM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #419

aflag wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. A good book is very efficient at teaching you how to think in that particular language, rather than translating the ideas you have in another language into the new language. How do you learn that with your method? It sounds to me that it would require a long time programming in the new language to come to the same realisations by yourself.

I've been developing software for more than ten years and it is rare now that I encounter anything genuinely new "idea wise" in a programming language. The main questions I have when doing something in an unfamiliar language are now: 1. What is the syntax for X 2. Can it do Y 3. Is there a library/builtin for Z For anything else, I've probably been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I remember using some books to get…

This is how to learn to mimic a new language and avoid actually learning it. It’s the difference between carrying around a French phrase book and being able to converse like a native.