Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#421

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:58 AM UTC

csb6 wrote: post #378

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

The wrong opinion? Stallman questions whether the victim, who he admits was coerced into sex, was actually sexually assaulted. This is an incredibly shameful take on the situation. If any politician or public figure said this statement in the past 70 years, they would have ended their career. There are no Internet vigilantes hunting down dissenters. There are people trying to downplay sexual assault. As the internet…

> If any politician or public figure said this statement in the past 70 years, they would have ended their career.

Sadly this is not true; it's been routine for all kinds of authority figures to blame the victim and excuse the perpetrator in cases of sexual assault and rape. Including police and judges.

The only way we've moved forward is the public making very clear that that is not acceptable, but this actually has a low hit rate. For every Stallman there is a Kavanagh, and a hundred rape apologists to back then up.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#422

Post by mindslight » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 7:59 AM UTC

journalctl wrote: post #366

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

I wouldn’t call “not actively espousing hateful or bigoted views” “self-censorship”. And if people are afraid to be hateful or creepy in public, I’d call that a win. You don’t get to proclaim the advantages of chattel slavery and be magically immune from everyone’s responses, and afterwards you can’t complain about self-censorship when you think twice about writing or saying something abhorrent.

Yeah, people should be afraid to be "creepy" in public. Bring back that good old high school dynamic where nerds knew their place. Next headline: RMS stuffed into gym locker. Right on!

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#423

Post by flukus » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 8:02 AM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #420

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

Top leader of a staff of 11 and a budget of 1 million dollars

You write this like it's an insult, but with a dozen stuff and million dollar budget he's done more for the world than most of us could do with 1000 staff and a billion dollar budget.

That's a testament to his vision and leadership.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#424

Post by toomanybeersies » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 8:06 AM UTC

bubblethink wrote: post #411

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

>But RMS is de facto leader and public figure in movement that is also political What does this mean ? He is a leader of an organisation related to software freedom (or more pedantically, the choice of licences used for software). How is it relevant ? All you are saying is, "Famous people can't talk like that".

If you are the leader for an organisation focused on advocacy (i.e. raising awareness and communicating), then your words become de facto the words of the organisation, even with comments not related to your organisations purpose.

If your leader appears to advocate pedophilia, then your organisation no longer becomes "that organisation that advocates for free software", but "that organisation run by a pedophile apologist".

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#425

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 8:06 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #423

michaelmrose wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top leader of a staff of 11 and a budget of 1 million dollars

You write this like it's an insult, but with a dozen stuff and million dollar budget he's done more for the world than most of us could do with 1000 staff and a billion dollar budget. That's a testament to his vision and leadership.

[deleted]

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#426

Post by michaelmrose » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 8:07 AM UTC

csb6 wrote: post #378

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

The wrong opinion? Stallman questions whether the victim, who he admits was coerced into sex, was actually sexually assaulted. This is an incredibly shameful take on the situation. If any politician or public figure said this statement in the past 70 years, they would have ended their career. There are no Internet vigilantes hunting down dissenters. There are people trying to downplay sexual assault. As the internet…

You believe free speech actually means not being able to express an opinion on anything anywhere that someone else could be offended by or lose your ability to live/eat/get medicine you need to survive. This is what getting fired means to normal people lest you forget.

Having a a factually or morally incorrect viewpoint on a public happening isn't an assault on a victim. Its an opportunity to help that person learn better and even more importantly to help the many more who believe the same as the speaker but who wont speak up learn as well.

Silence dissent and you lose that opportunity and everyone is poorer for it.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#427

Post by hiisukun » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 8:08 AM UTC

journalctl wrote: post #366

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

I wouldn’t call “not actively espousing hateful or bigoted views” “self-censorship”. And if people are afraid to be hateful or creepy in public, I’d call that a win. You don’t get to proclaim the advantages of chattel slavery and be magically immune from everyone’s responses, and afterwards you can’t complain about self-censorship when you think twice about writing or saying something abhorrent.

The larger your audience, the more likely one of them will consider your views hateful or bigoted (regardless of what your views are).

Are there perhaps some views that you think are not quite hateful or bigoted, but aren't totally fine to state? Maybe, "err on the side of caution" type views?

I wonder what Zeno would think on moving your views from completely hateful to completely fine: first you must go halfway-hateful, then half of that, and so on. Perhaps one will never find a completely fine view to state!

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#428

Post by michaelmrose » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 8:12 AM UTC

Uhuhreally wrote: post #216

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

Bollocks. Like Ricky Gervais said the other day actually you can say anything you like. People might not agree with you and that's fine.

By disagree you mean people might put pressure on your employer until you are fired in order to silence you and anyone who thinks about expressing such thoughts.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#429

Post by mindslight » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 8:13 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #242

naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

> it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. It's not. Take it from me, a guy who predates social media by decades. If you go back and look at what Gary Hart dropped out of the 1988 presidential race for, and compare it to what Donald Trump said on social media before, during, and after being elected President, the…

The proper comparison is not what a politician could say 20 years ago, but rather what a well-known software figure could say on a mailing list. "Predating social media by decades", you should appreciate how online communication was before the status-gamers got here and reasserted their tribalistic bullshit.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#430

Post by fingerlocks » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 8:14 AM UTC

d6e wrote: post #392

kfrzcode wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm hesitant to post anything, anywhere, just because I don't want to offend anyone by expressing an earnest opinion. I think the trend's moving more quickly towards self-censorship than anyone realizes. How can we even quantify that? Those who censor just disappear? What stands out for me is the obvious monoculture we're developing. I miss custom PHPBB boards for every little interest and opinion.

Phpbb forums didn't go away because of self censorship, they were simply replaced with bigger sites like Reddit. If you're trying to create a community around a niche topic, a subreddit is substantially easier to create than deploying and maintaining a forum.

I was not aware that phpbb forums disappeared; I regularly read three of them that are all quite active. Yes, there are subreddit counterparts, but the reddit versions are mostly filled with crappy karma-seeking memes and wildly off-topic discussions.

The phpbb forums tend to be a lot more ruthless in self-moderation and probably a fair amount of gatekeeping too. But the content is significantly better than reddit, which I believe is a source of pride for many of the participants. I also get the impression that there is a growing sense of “coolness” using a crappy outdated UX. I predict the return and rise of the niche community sites will happen before its total disappearance.